If One Clutch is Good,.....

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Rope-Pusher
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If One Clutch is Good,.....

Post by Rope-Pusher » Sat May 11, 2019 10:26 am

...Two Clutches Should be Better, Right?
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Lawsuits piling up over Ford's dual-clutch transmission in Fiesta, Focus

The so-called "dual clutch" transmissions are in 2011 to 2016 Fiestas and 2012 to 2016 Focuses.

https://www.michiganradio.org/post/laws ... esta-focus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-clutch_transmission
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Re: If One Clutch is Good,.....

Post by ClutchFork » Mon May 13, 2019 8:03 am

They got it wrong. If 2 clutches is better then why not 7? One for each gear (including reverse). Then you have total control at the gear level, but so much easier to go with an Amish transmission in the first place. Funny how when you have such a great product and people can't leave well enough alone but have to try making such complexity and all just to go to the grocery store! Ah but it is all about the money. The silly masses think these fancy, complicated transmissions are the "in" thing.
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...

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Re: If One Clutch is Good,.....

Post by Rope-Pusher » Mon May 13, 2019 8:51 am

ClutchFork wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:03 am
They got it wrong. If 2 clutches is better then why not 7? One for each gear (including reverse). Then you have total control at the gear level, but so much easier to go with an Amish transmission in the first place. Funny how when you have such a great product and people can't leave well enough alone but have to try making such complexity and all just to go to the grocery store! Ah but it is all about the money. The silly masses think these fancy, complicated transmissions are the "in" thing.
There was a big push in that timeframe to wring-out more and more efficiency from the DCTs and so they abandoned wet clutch designs and tried dry clutches. Wet clutches have viscous drag and typically need hydraulic pump to actuate, but the fluid carries heat away from the clutch material and makes it more robust against heat damage when slipping. Dry clutches have negligible drag when disengaged and can be actuated electrically, so less energy wasted, but maybe difficult to modulate the engagement and smoothness must often be sacrificed to abrupt engagements to limit heat build-up.
I think Ford thought they might software-fix themselves out of the customer satisfaction problems, but other automakers watched the situation carefully and changed their plans accordingly. That's why the Dodge Dart got a Hyundai planetary 6-speed slushbox.....after they made their point with a DCT 1.4 TC that got 40 MPG EPA Highway, which was a goal that when reached allowed FIAT to assume a larger percentage of ownership of Chrysler. 39 MPG or 38 mpg wouldn't have been good enough.
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Re: If One Clutch is Good,.....

Post by tankinbeans » Mon May 13, 2019 9:12 am

After my brief experience with the Powershit Focus, I can see why people complained. The 2017 we had was supposedly the updated one where changes had been made to the innerbits. It was coarse, loud, and jiggly. The Mazda mom now has is quieter, more efficient, and feels better. That has a right-sized torque converter and shifts pretty quickly (when you allow it to do its own thing, keep Sport mode out of it).

*sidebar...the quality of materials for the 2017 Focus SE are markedly worse than those in the 2013 I had.
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Re: If One Clutch is Good,.....

Post by potownrob » Tue May 14, 2019 2:52 am

that's what they get for not consulting with VW earlier. VW had worked out most of the kinks bye the thyme fored started using dual clutches.
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Re: If One Clutch is Good,.....

Post by tankinbeans » Tue May 14, 2019 8:42 am

potownrob wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:52 am
that's what they get for not consulting with VW earlier. VW had worked out most of the kinks bye the thyme fored started using dual clutches.
As I recall VW had pretty big issues with their moist DSG in the beginning. Seems like both of these trannies were shoved out before they were fully baked.

Also, training drivers in driving with a trans other than torque converters would be helpful. I made it very clear to mom that she shouldn't creep and should be fully stopped before shifting from reverse

Honestly, I'd be curious if AISIN had a design in the wings. I also wonder how the Koreans are doing with their DCTs. Are they provided by GETRAG?
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Re: If One Clutch is Good,.....

Post by potownrob » Tue May 14, 2019 8:50 am

tankinbeans wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:42 am
potownrob wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:52 am
that's what they get for not consulting with VW earlier. VW had worked out most of the kinks bye the thyme fored started using dual clutches.
As I recall VW had pretty big issues with their moist DSG in the beginning. Seems like both of these trannies were shoved out before they were fully baked.

Also, training drivers in driving with a trans other than torque converters would be helpful. I made it very clear to mom that she shouldn't creep and should be fully stopped before shifting from reverse

Honestly, I'd be curious if AISIN had a design in the wings. I also wonder how the Koreans are doing with their DCTs. Are they provided by GETRAG?
when did ford start putting DCTs in random econoboxes, 2012?? I believe the VAG crew had the main kinks (namely mechatronic unit failures) ironed out by then. They still weren’t very smooth launching, but that’s a limitation of a DSG gearbox that doesn’t have a torque converter connected to it. Acura had the right idea with their DCT with a torque converter to smooth out launches. Not that the 9 speed Honda uses is a good example of a conventional automatic tranny, but you know the DCT can’t be that bad when it is recommended (connected to a K24 nonetheless) over the conventional auto V6 models.
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Re: If One Clutch is Good,.....

Post by IMBoring25 » Tue May 14, 2019 8:49 pm

There's no reason a DSG couldn't be made to launch smoothly. Full manuals can, of course. There just has to be the want-to.

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Re: If One Clutch is Good,.....

Post by Rope-Pusher » Tue May 14, 2019 10:26 pm

IMBoring25 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:49 pm
There's no reason a DSG couldn't be made to launch smoothly. Full manuals can, of course. There just has to be the want-to.
Pairing the DCT with a torque converter probably makes the most sense - it drives more like other automatic transmissions, they can avoid slipping the clutch to achieve smooth 1st gear launches, you can get some torque multiplication from the torque converter, and they promote whirled piece.

There is still a lot to be said for the more traditional planetary geared slushboxes, especially with 8, 9, or 10 gears to play with.
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Re: If One Clutch is Good,.....

Post by ClutchFork » Wed May 15, 2019 8:02 am

Rope-Pusher wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 10:26 pm
IMBoring25 wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:49 pm
There's no reason a DSG couldn't be made to launch smoothly. Full manuals can, of course. There just has to be the want-to.
Pairing the DCT with a torque converter probably makes the most sense - it drives more like other automatic transmissions, they can avoid slipping the clutch to achieve smooth 1st gear launches, you can get some torque multiplication from the torque converter, and they promote whirled piece.

There is still a lot to be said for the more traditional planetary geared slushboxes, especially with 8, 9, or 10 gears to play with.
Planetary gears were good enough for Henry Ford and his Model T, so why not stick with a functional arrangement?

Planetary gears prove their worth in that Lenco uses them for extreme manually shifted racing transmissions too!
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...

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