Upshifting Technique Question

Read the FAQ and still not sure about something? Want to shift faster? Post here.
Rope-Pusher
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 11048
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:44 pm
Cars: '08 Jeep Liberty
Location: Greater Detroit Area

Re: Upshifting Technique Question

Post by Rope-Pusher » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:17 pm

Image

A bank or a credit union will often float you a loan for your engagement.
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"

User avatar
ClutchFork
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:55 pm
Cars: 2001 S10 2.2L manual
Location: Detroit MI

Re: Upshifting Technique Question

Post by ClutchFork » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:04 pm

monkeyhunk wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:55 am
I float out clutch in with most of my shifts on my Jeep. Just seems to be a habit I've unconsciously gotten into from driving a big truck more than my personal vehicle. It does seem to be pretty smooth most of the time though.
Is that what it is called. I thought I was just being lazy, but coming in to a stop, I often push the lever out of gear without the clutch, and yes sometimes there is resistance so no go. I always wondered if it was bad for something in the tranny if you push it out while there is still a little resistance.

EDIT: wait, some googling says float shiting is into gears. So what is it called when I pull it into neutral without the clutch?

Back in the day, my 77 F150 shift linkage broke, so to get home I started the engine in first gear then float shifted the rest of the way.
Stick shiftin since '77
theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...

Rope-Pusher
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 11048
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:44 pm
Cars: '08 Jeep Liberty
Location: Greater Detroit Area

Re: Upshifting Technique Question

Post by Rope-Pusher » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:20 am

ClutchFork wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:04 pm
monkeyhunk wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:55 am
I float out clutch in with most of my shifts on my Jeep. Just seems to be a habit I've unconsciously gotten into from driving a big truck more than my personal vehicle. It does seem to be pretty smooth most of the time though.
Is that what it is called. I thought I was just being lazy, but coming in to a stop, I often push the lever out of gear without the clutch, and yes sometimes there is resistance so no go. I always wondered if it was bad for something in the tranny if you push it out while there is still a little resistance.

EDIT: wait, some googling says float shiting is into gears. So what is it called when I pull it into neutral without the clutch?

Back in the day, my 77 F150 shift linkage broke, so to get home I started the engine in first gear then float shifted the rest of the way.
There is a taper to the splines on the synchro hubs that resists the synchro from disengaging whenever torque is being transmitted through the gearset (the gearset that is currently engaged). If you 'Float" so that you are neither accelerating nor decelerating, there is no torque being transmitted and you can pull the sychro to the disengaged position with only a small amount of force being applied at the shift knob. The same can be said for engaging the synchro, but only true if the speed across the gearset is already synchronized...maybe you double-clutched, maybe the synchro was previously engaged just a moment ago and the speeds are still synched, etc.
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"

User avatar
ClutchFork
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:55 pm
Cars: 2001 S10 2.2L manual
Location: Detroit MI

Re: Upshifting Technique Question

Post by ClutchFork » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:48 am

Rope-Pusher wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:20 am
ClutchFork wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:04 pm
monkeyhunk wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:55 am
I float out clutch in with most of my shifts on my Jeep. Just seems to be a habit I've unconsciously gotten into from driving a big truck more than my personal vehicle. It does seem to be pretty smooth most of the time though.
Is that what it is called. I thought I was just being lazy, but coming in to a stop, I often push the lever out of gear without the clutch, and yes sometimes there is resistance so no go. I always wondered if it was bad for something in the tranny if you push it out while there is still a little resistance.

EDIT: wait, some googling says float shiting is into gears. So what is it called when I pull it into neutral without the clutch?

Back in the day, my 77 F150 shift linkage broke, so to get home I started the engine in first gear then float shifted the rest of the way.
There is a taper to the splines on the synchro hubs that resists the synchro from disengaging whenever torque is being transmitted through the gearset (the gearset that is currently engaged). If you 'Float" so that you are neither accelerating nor decelerating, there is no torque being transmitted and you can pull the sychro to the disengaged position with only a small amount of force being applied at the shift knob. The same can be said for engaging the synchro, but only true if the speed across the gearset is already synchronized...maybe you double-clutched, maybe the synchro was previously engaged just a moment ago and the speeds are still synched, etc.
I see. So float refers to the fact that no torque is on the gear either from the engine or the road feeding back through the wheels. So then we can float shift into or out of gears, obviously the easiest of the three to arrange being going out of gear.
Stick shiftin since '77
theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...

User avatar
ClutchFork
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1671
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:55 pm
Cars: 2001 S10 2.2L manual
Location: Detroit MI

Re: Upshifting Technique Question

Post by ClutchFork » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:49 am

Rope-Pusher wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:17 pm
Image

A bank or a credit union will often float you a loan for your engagement.
Isn't that sort of like taking your transmission and welding the lever so it is stuck in one gear?
Stick shiftin since '77
theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...

Rope-Pusher
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 11048
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:44 pm
Cars: '08 Jeep Liberty
Location: Greater Detroit Area

Re: Upshifting Technique Question

Post by Rope-Pusher » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:11 pm

ClutchFork wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:49 am
Rope-Pusher wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:17 pm
A bank or a credit union will often float you a loan for your engagement.
Isn't that sort of like taking your transmission and welding the lever so it is stuck in one gear?
Image
Some say there is no worse torture on the face of this earth than to be married alive.
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"

User avatar
potownrob
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 7564
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:35 pm
Cars: '13 ES 350; '07 Altima
Location: Dutchess County

Re: Upshifting Technique Question

Post by potownrob » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:50 am

ClutchFork wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:04 pm
monkeyhunk wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:55 am
I float out clutch in with most of my shifts on my Jeep. Just seems to be a habit I've unconsciously gotten into from driving a big truck more than my personal vehicle. It does seem to be pretty smooth most of the time though.
Is that what it is called. I thought I was just being lazy, but coming in to a stop, I often push the lever out of gear without the clutch, and yes sometimes there is resistance so no go. I always wondered if it was bad for something in the tranny if you push it out while there is still a little resistance.

EDIT: wait, some googling says float shiting is into gears. So what is it called when I pull it into neutral without the clutch?

Back in the day, my 77 F150 shift linkage broke, so to get home I started the engine in first gear then float shifted the rest of the way.
for driving big trucks, i don't think it's considered being lazy, but rather a matter of necessity due to the number of gears they have to shift through and the heaviness of the clutch. they pass the driver's test using the clutch, but then float the boat after the test. the lack of synchros also makes it easy to shift without the clutch as long as you know when to shift. shifting into neutral without the clutch is considered floating, as it is half of a floated shift and you are floating out of a gear into neutral. i always was told it's not good to shift a synchro box without the clutch, but rope's post seems to at least imply otherwise...
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.

User avatar
potownrob
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 7564
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:35 pm
Cars: '13 ES 350; '07 Altima
Location: Dutchess County

Re: Upshifting Technique Question

Post by potownrob » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:01 am

Shedrick wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:05 am
How can that be smooth? Your technique must be good. haha
my dad showed me to feel the stick for when it stops vibrating to know when to shift. 'tis much harder in newer cars with cable-linked shifters or otherwise disconnected shifters that don't feel connected to the gearbox. the only synchro box i've been able to easily float gears on was my 94 civic EX, probably due in part at least to its worn out synchros. i had to shift into another gear before shifting into first or reverse on that car.
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.

Rope-Pusher
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 11048
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:44 pm
Cars: '08 Jeep Liberty
Location: Greater Detroit Area

Re: Upshifting Technique Question

Post by Rope-Pusher » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:39 pm

potownrob wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:01 am
Shedrick wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:05 am
How can that be smooth? Your technique must be good. haha
my dad showed me to feel the stick for when it stops vibrating to know when to shift. 'tis much harder in newer cars with cable-linked shifters or otherwise disconnected shifters that don't feel connected to the gearbox. the only synchro box i've been able to easily float gears on was my 94 civic EX, probably due in part at least to its worn out synchros. i had to shift into another gear before shifting into first or reverse on that car.
One of the symptoms of a clutch that is not fully disengaging when you push the pedal to the downstop is difficulty in shifting into 1st or Reverse...especially if that's an unsynchronized Reverse.

With the transmission in Neutral and the engine idling, it should take less than 3 seconds for the clutch to stop spinning after you've burried the pedal. Shifting into another gear first can slow down the clutch sooner than if you just let it spin down on its own. One test is to shift with the engine off, pushing in the clutch and everything, and compare it to the same actions taken when the engine is idling. If having the engine running makes it worse, then probably your clutch is not fully releasing...or at least it is not releasing until it is less than 25 mm from the downstop. This release point should be related to the engagement point. They won't be at the exact same point, but if one is high, the other will likely be high. If one is low, the other will likely be low. If Goldilocks can drive your vehicle like a pro, then the release point is just right.
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"

User avatar
potownrob
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 7564
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:35 pm
Cars: '13 ES 350; '07 Altima
Location: Dutchess County

Re: Upshifting Technique Question

Post by potownrob » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:28 am

Rope-Pusher wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:39 pm
potownrob wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:01 am
Shedrick wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:05 am
How can that be smooth? Your technique must be good. haha
my dad showed me to feel the stick for when it stops vibrating to know when to shift. 'tis much harder in newer cars with cable-linked shifters or otherwise disconnected shifters that don't feel connected to the gearbox. the only synchro box i've been able to easily float gears on was my 94 civic EX, probably due in part at least to its worn out synchros. i had to shift into another gear before shifting into first or reverse on that car.
One of the symptoms of a clutch that is not fully disengaging when you push the pedal to the downstop is difficulty in shifting into 1st or Reverse...especially if that's an unsynchronized Reverse.

With the transmission in Neutral and the engine idling, it should take less than 3 seconds for the clutch to stop spinning after you've burried the pedal. Shifting into another gear first can slow down the clutch sooner than if you just let it spin down on its own. One test is to shift with the engine off, pushing in the clutch and everything, and compare it to the same actions taken when the engine is idling. If having the engine running makes it worse, then probably your clutch is not fully releasing...or at least it is not releasing until it is less than 25 mm from the downstop. This release point should be related to the engagement point. They won't be at the exact same point, but if one is high, the other will likely be high. If one is low, the other will likely be low. If Goldilocks can drive your vehicle like a pro, then the release point is just right.
haven't had that car in over 14 years (RIP Barney), and all subsequent cars have been much better, so unable to test it out right now. i did replace the clutch early on in my ownership of Barney, and still had to either wait to go into 1st or shift into another gear first. figured the synchros were just shot. car was 10 years old with over 150k miles on it when i got it, so didn't expect much (later came to expect more from 10 year old hondas though).

Image
*not my car but looked just like that
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.

Post Reply