Actually I found and article on wikipedia that states ABS actually is worse than regular brakes on slippery surfaces life ice or snow
Braking distance from 80-0 km/h:
________________locked wheels______ABS
dry pavement________45m___________32m
snow_______________53m___________64m
ice_________________255m__________404m
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_ ... mpensation
Engine Braking in Emergency Situations
-
ruffrhyder21213
- Senior Standardshifter
- Posts: 278
- Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:58 am
- Location: SuN(619)DyAgO, CaLi4nIa
-
SteveUK
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 1418
- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:46 am
- Cars: 2011 Ford Fiesta Zetec S
- Location: United Kingdom
This proves how immature you are. I can emergency brake and block change at the same time. But I have far more training that you have. I am a better driver, I know my limits - which will far exceed yours. I have been driving for 12 years and I have never hit anything and I drive a damn site faster than you do.JackBauer wrote:(yaawn) yadi yadi yada, next time your in the states, we'll have a little high speed get together at a twisty road someplaceI also never said braking for a crner is the same as braking for an emergency, i don't know what part of this you don't understand, but i am saying that you will stop faster when you use engine braking together with caliper to rotor braking. but in all seriousness, it's always the people with the 'i'm better than you' additude i end up smoking. I guess it's just something i can do that some others can't (braking while using compression at the same time) I am a very quick thinker, infact, after racing courses, defensive driving courses, etc. I have never ran into a situation where i hit something because i couldn't think clearly. How old are you? i think coordination starts to drop after 26 right?
I have respect for the vehicle that I am using and others on the road. I have advanced skills that have been practised thousands of times on special tracks before I use them on the road.
Your attitude comes across as very, very arrogant. When you have been driving for as long as I have AND have the same qualifications that I have then you can be arrogant, until then try to learn from people with far more experience and far more knowledge than you.
-
SteveUK
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 1418
- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:46 am
- Cars: 2011 Ford Fiesta Zetec S
- Location: United Kingdom
Prodigal Son:
How many times have you had to do an emergency stop? I mean a real one. I imagine it is the same as me, not very often. I can also imagine why you don't have to do it very often, you read the road ahead and drive to your limit and the limit of the prevailing conditions.
I clutch in at the last minute to get some passive engine braking. It is not much, but it is better than just wasting it. That is the way you are taught and expected to do in your test here. The car will not stall until the wheels stop moving and like you said by then it's all over anyway.
I would never change down (though I have the skill to do it) because I would only have my right hand on the wheel and that is not enough to steer and maintain control. Just because I can do something it doesn't mean I should do it and do do it. I would quite happily drive on the same roads as you, safe in the knowledge that you are a safe competant driver. Unlike others here that scare me.
How many times have you had to do an emergency stop? I mean a real one. I imagine it is the same as me, not very often. I can also imagine why you don't have to do it very often, you read the road ahead and drive to your limit and the limit of the prevailing conditions.
I clutch in at the last minute to get some passive engine braking. It is not much, but it is better than just wasting it. That is the way you are taught and expected to do in your test here. The car will not stall until the wheels stop moving and like you said by then it's all over anyway.
I would never change down (though I have the skill to do it) because I would only have my right hand on the wheel and that is not enough to steer and maintain control. Just because I can do something it doesn't mean I should do it and do do it. I would quite happily drive on the same roads as you, safe in the knowledge that you are a safe competant driver. Unlike others here that scare me.
-
Hatchman
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 2687
- Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:25 pm
- Location: frequently in a FiT often in Etobicoke
This thread clearly demonstrates what I see as a bit of a problem in these forums. While I respect the experience and expertise of Steve and Prodigal, as I think many of us do, no one likes to be talked down to or second-guessed. I don't think too many people on the site go around driving crazy and emergency-stopping all over the place and street-racing every night. I'd readily give most of you guys and gals the benefit of the doubt. Somehow Jack's posts come across as less arrogant and condescending because they are at least humorous and down-to-earth. I for one am made to feel like a child when I read what I would call brow-beating, finger-wagging and lectures. Believe it or not Steve and Prodigal, you're preaching to the converted, at least as far as my own driving style is concerned. Steve, with all your training, I'm amazed you haven't been taught a degree of sensitivity. Do you yell at accident victims for having accidents? And Prodigal, I think you should actually start more threads because many of your "lessons" end up too far astray from posts to which you are replying. Sometimes you'll quote me and then go off on some kind of lecture. And my reaction is, "Why the F is he lecturing me? I know this already." Maybe the time to lecture is when a member asks for it specifically. I just find the safety digressions out of place a little. People want pointed replies, not entire background articles...at least I assume so. You have a lot of valuable tips, and many of them would make good topics in their own right, not to mention making good stickies or FAQ entries under something like "Safe Driving Tips". Maybe it's time for a new sub-forum called "How to Drive with Sense". (I was never good at titles.)
Respectfully,
Hatchman
Respectfully,
Hatchman
-
magnus_1986
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:01 pm
- Location: Muscat, Oman
- Contact:
Steve, you come here with your 'i'm better than you' additude spitting your pride like it's worth 02 cents, and call me arrogant and immature? 
"Hey! look at me! I got my liscence (in a manual!!!) woppy!!!" And we all know we people in the states look up to you if IT WAS IN A MANUAL!
I was just returning the favor on my last post. That 'race liscense' will do you no good with out a car to race in. If liscences are all that matter, (and to an extent they are) I have taken all the courses necessary, theres just too much of a hassle attaining it when you are under 18, although it is possible. I am more than competent to get it, infact; today is my birth day. I am 18, it is on my list of to do's.
Experience affects your performance on the track, but so does talent. You may have experience, but do you have the talenT? Everyone can't just take a few courses and expect to make good times. I've raced guys, that talk down to me, really talk down to me, i just stay silent, and let my homemade garage built engine do the talking. some of these people, have 15 years experience, some of them even more! but i win, sometimes because of luck, and alot of the times because i'm simply more talented (don't mean to sound arrogant, but thats what this industry comes down to) And its funny, i've made a generalization- it's the ppl with the type of additude you demonstrate now that I end up embarrasing. The older guys, that talk with respect, and show respect, their the ones that have been able to surpass me, and i have no regrets losing to them, infact i make friends with them and that has in turn affected my EXPERIENCE by huge degrees, and my natural talent has been affected by these experiences also. So i guess, it comes down to this Steve. Are you more talented than i am? Theres really only one way to know; but from your posts, and your additude and the way you carry yourself, you seem like the type of person that i would embaresse. (again don't mean to sound arrogant)
Did i mention i won the panoz get-together event of 2005 in 2nd place? I think i remember you said you wen't to panoz, correct? but if i'm wrong, Perhaps your familiar with it, every couple of years or so, former students go to the track where ever panoz is, and you engage in a friendly 2 1/2 hour race. You may also know, once you take this course, you are eligible to go pro, (well it's not that simple, but it's the first step) And you are also eligible to endure testing for a race liscence.
Prodigal: I think you should have your own DIY section
. Your writing is always easy to understand, and lengthy- exactly what a rookie wants.
JV1: Maybe you should read his DIY. It's very easy to understand an.....
j/k
"Hey! look at me! I got my liscence (in a manual!!!) woppy!!!" And we all know we people in the states look up to you if IT WAS IN A MANUAL!
I was just returning the favor on my last post. That 'race liscense' will do you no good with out a car to race in. If liscences are all that matter, (and to an extent they are) I have taken all the courses necessary, theres just too much of a hassle attaining it when you are under 18, although it is possible. I am more than competent to get it, infact; today is my birth day. I am 18, it is on my list of to do's.
Experience affects your performance on the track, but so does talent. You may have experience, but do you have the talenT? Everyone can't just take a few courses and expect to make good times. I've raced guys, that talk down to me, really talk down to me, i just stay silent, and let my homemade garage built engine do the talking. some of these people, have 15 years experience, some of them even more! but i win, sometimes because of luck, and alot of the times because i'm simply more talented (don't mean to sound arrogant, but thats what this industry comes down to) And its funny, i've made a generalization- it's the ppl with the type of additude you demonstrate now that I end up embarrasing. The older guys, that talk with respect, and show respect, their the ones that have been able to surpass me, and i have no regrets losing to them, infact i make friends with them and that has in turn affected my EXPERIENCE by huge degrees, and my natural talent has been affected by these experiences also. So i guess, it comes down to this Steve. Are you more talented than i am? Theres really only one way to know; but from your posts, and your additude and the way you carry yourself, you seem like the type of person that i would embaresse. (again don't mean to sound arrogant)
Did i mention i won the panoz get-together event of 2005 in 2nd place? I think i remember you said you wen't to panoz, correct? but if i'm wrong, Perhaps your familiar with it, every couple of years or so, former students go to the track where ever panoz is, and you engage in a friendly 2 1/2 hour race. You may also know, once you take this course, you are eligible to go pro, (well it's not that simple, but it's the first step) And you are also eligible to endure testing for a race liscence.
Prodigal: I think you should have your own DIY section
. Your writing is always easy to understand, and lengthy- exactly what a rookie wants.JV1: Maybe you should read his DIY. It's very easy to understand an.....
j/k-
magnus_1986
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:01 pm
- Location: Muscat, Oman
- Contact:
I think steve is a bit misunderstood here. His posts do seem to have a little arrogant note to them but make no mistake his advice is very nice.
+1 Steve!
+1 Prodigal Son!
+1 Jack!
+1 Mikey!
+100000000000000000 SS.com ! ! !
+1 Steve!
+1 Prodigal Son!
+1 Jack!
+1 Mikey!
+100000000000000000 SS.com ! ! !
Do not try to find 3rd, for you may not always reach it. Just go up and let it reach you!
-
SteveUK
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 1418
- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:46 am
- Cars: 2011 Ford Fiesta Zetec S
- Location: United Kingdom
I had written a long reply, but it was lost when my computer froze, but to summarise:
Sorry if you think I am caustic. I do find Jack's posts arrogant. Perhaps it is becasue of his North American Language and my Formal English.
I try to stay clear of the "How do I" etc. posts because of what people incorrectly say. However, Emergency Stops are an important skill that all drivers should have. Most people here have had no formal training so just muddle through - and I do have a problem when some may listen to someone who does not know what they are doing themselves.
Well, the original post was much longer with more explanations, but I can't be bothered to write it again. I will be going now and as I am not understood nor wanted I may never return.
Good luck everyone with your driving and may all your problems be small ones.
Sorry if you think I am caustic. I do find Jack's posts arrogant. Perhaps it is becasue of his North American Language and my Formal English.
I try to stay clear of the "How do I" etc. posts because of what people incorrectly say. However, Emergency Stops are an important skill that all drivers should have. Most people here have had no formal training so just muddle through - and I do have a problem when some may listen to someone who does not know what they are doing themselves.
Well, the original post was much longer with more explanations, but I can't be bothered to write it again. I will be going now and as I am not understood nor wanted I may never return.
Good luck everyone with your driving and may all your problems be small ones.
-
jomotopia
- Moderator
- Posts: 10230
- Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:01 pm
- Cars: 04 STi, 05 Matrix XR (AT)
- Location: AWD Turbo Nirvana
- Contact:
i feel you are a valuable part of this community, we need someone with your training and experience for things just like this.SteveUK wrote:I will be going now and as I am not understood nor wanted I may never return.
Good luck everyone with your driving and may all your problems be small ones.
JB: if you feel you can do an emergency stop better by downshifting during, then go ahead. i'm not arguing the point that it may indeed be better if executed properly. the problem i see here is recommending a technique like this be used in an emergency to noobs who can't even downshift very well under normal situations, let alone in an emergency. surely you can agree if that if somebody is asking questions about how to downshift, then they are not going to be able to do it well in an emergency situation and are likely going to cause more problems by trying.
2013 Subaru Impreza WRX in Orange
-
HighlyEvolved
- Senior Standardshifter
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:35 pm
- Location: Mexico City
-
magnus_1986
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 1166
- Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:01 pm
- Location: Muscat, Oman
- Contact:
-
IMBoring25
- Moderator
- Posts: 3418
- Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:01 pm
- Location: OK, USA
Coming in a little late on this one, but I'll reiterate...
I still haven't seen a good response to the question of, if the brakes alone are capable of locking up the wheels, how any further braking force, especially when it is not properly proportioned between the front and rear wheels, is of any benefit at all.
EVEN IF there were a situation in which downshifting for engine braking in an emergency situation (In which case, by definition, you would not have been able to downshift in advance) would glean some measureable benefit, it would be in about half a percent of situations in about half a dozen types of vehicles, and about three people in the world would legitimately have the skills to properly utilize it in order to not make the situation worse.
1) Maintain control.
2a) If you can avoid by stopping, avoid by stopping.
2b) If you can avoid by steering, avoid by steering.
To suggest otherwise and advise the general public to downshift in emergency situations is not only irresponsible and dangerous, but intimidating to the very people asking for advice.
I still haven't seen a good response to the question of, if the brakes alone are capable of locking up the wheels, how any further braking force, especially when it is not properly proportioned between the front and rear wheels, is of any benefit at all.
EVEN IF there were a situation in which downshifting for engine braking in an emergency situation (In which case, by definition, you would not have been able to downshift in advance) would glean some measureable benefit, it would be in about half a percent of situations in about half a dozen types of vehicles, and about three people in the world would legitimately have the skills to properly utilize it in order to not make the situation worse.
1) Maintain control.
2a) If you can avoid by stopping, avoid by stopping.
2b) If you can avoid by steering, avoid by steering.
To suggest otherwise and advise the general public to downshift in emergency situations is not only irresponsible and dangerous, but intimidating to the very people asking for advice.
-
Hatchman
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 2687
- Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:25 pm
- Location: frequently in a FiT often in Etobicoke
Like what?SteveUK wrote: I try to stay clear of the "How do I" etc. posts because of what people incorrectly say.
Success is possible without formal training.SteveUK wrote: However, Emergency Stops are an important skill that all drivers should have. Most people here have had no formal training so just muddle through - and I do have a problem when some may listen to someone who does not know what they are doing themselves.
No one wants to see you leave our group Steve.SteveUK wrote: Well, the original post was much longer with more explanations, but I can't be bothered to write it again. I will be going now and as I am not understood nor wanted I may never return.
