clutch wear during upshift

[vw100]

Most of the time i miss the target by 200-300 during upshifting (rpm drops fast and by the time a release the clutch they are just a little bit off the target) I don't use the throttle until i complete the shift. It's not any BANG or sth just some really small jerks that you can't really notice unless you are really paying attention or you are REALLY picky...
Of course i am not dumping the clutch but not slipping either, just a quick, normal release.
so in short, how much clutch life does it take to make the engine spin faster when it wants to slow down ? Can we really call it clutch wear or is it negligible ?
How much rpm difference should we worry about ?
When downshifting i pause the clutch a little so it takes the rpm difference and it makes it smooth. (max 1000 rpm difference i would say) anything to worry here ?

[theholycow]

Sounds negligible. Don't worry about it.

Most of the time i miss the target by 200-300 during upshifting (rpm drops fast and by the time a release the clutch they are just a little bit off the target)

Sounds like RPM is too low during clutch engagement. Normally you should give it a little gas to mitigate that. Do it approximately as you're engaging the clutch, whenever makes it smooth. You could also shift faster.

When downshifting i pause the clutch a little so it takes the rpm difference and it makes it smooth. (max 1000 rpm difference i would say) anything to worry here ?

Sounds normal. Personally I'm not going to wait around for the RPM to drop, if the engine can't keep up with me then the clutch will have to take up the slack...if I'm rev-match downshifting then I've got somewhere I need to be and ain't nobody got time fo' dat.

[vw100]

Sounds negligible. Don't worry about it.

Most of the time i miss the target by 200-300 during upshifting (rpm drops fast and by the time a release the clutch they are just a little bit off the target)

Sounds like RPM is too low during clutch engagement. Normally you should give it a little gas to mitigate that. Do it approximately as you're engaging the clutch, whenever makes it smooth. You could also shift faster.

When downshifting i pause the clutch a little so it takes the rpm difference and it makes it smooth. (max 1000 rpm difference i would say) anything to worry here ?

Sounds normal. Personally I'm not going to wait around for the RPM to drop, if the engine can't keep up with me then the clutch will have to take up the slack...if I'm rev-match downshifting then I've got somewhere I need to be and ain't nobody got time fo' dat.

well now it is like second nature so i can't change my habits. It's not a jerk to worry about. It goes unnoticed all the time anyway.
so when shifting and downshifting it is really minimal clutch wear, no matter how off the target rpm are on the engine side ?
to add to that, how does clutch release speed effect this wear ? is it the same as releasing it really fast and making it jolt and releasing it slowly through the Friction Zone or even pausing there ?

[theholycow]

so when shifting and downshifting it is really minimal clutch wear, no matter how off the target rpm are on the engine side ?

The further off from target, the more wear. There's no need to worry much about a few hundred RPM, though you ought to try to improve anyway. I'd say to worry as you approach deltas of 500RPM or more.

to add to that, how does clutch release speed effect this wear ? is it the same as releasing it really fast and making it jolt and releasing it slowly through the Friction Zone or even pausing there ?

Slow clutch work, smoothing it with the clutch, will put more wear on the clutch friction material. Faster clutch work, allowing jerking, will put more stress on the whole driveline.

It's a balancing act. You perfect your technique/equipment or you choose your compromise.

[vw100]

so when shifting and downshifting it is really minimal clutch wear, no matter how off the target rpm are on the engine side ?

The further off from target, the more wear. There's no need to worry much about a few hundred RPM, though you ought to try to improve anyway. I'd say to worry as you approach deltas of 500RPM or more.

to add to that, how does clutch release speed effect this wear ? is it the same as releasing it really fast and making it jolt and releasing it slowly through the Friction Zone or even pausing there ?

Slow clutch work, smoothing it with the clutch, will put more wear on the clutch friction material. Faster clutch work, allowing jerking, will put more stress on the whole driveline.

It's a balancing act. You perfect your technique/equipment or you choose your compromise.

i don't wanna make another thread so ...
when upshifting, (in the scenario where the rpm drop fast) WHY do so many people say add gas WHEN YOU GET TO THE FP the logic says that you should start giving just a tiny amount of throttle BEFORE getting there and the reason is to slow down the rate at which the RPM fall, so by the time the clutch gets to the FP and starts engaging, the engine is at the target rpm...
But if we start applying throttle ONLY WHEN the clutch starts hooking up than whats the point I don't think you can get a smooth shift like that. Please theholycow can you make this clear for me ?

[theholycow]

i don't wanna make another thread so ...
when upshifting, (in the scenario where the rpm drop fast) WHY do so many people say add gas WHEN YOU GET TO THE FP the logic says that you should start giving just a tiny amount of throttle BEFORE getting there and the reason is to slow down the rate at which the RPM fall, so by the time the clutch gets to the FP and starts engaging, the engine is at the target rpm...
But if we start applying throttle ONLY WHEN the clutch starts hooking up than whats the point I don't think you can get a smooth shift like that. Please theholycow can you make this clear for me ?

You are correct. I usually say "give it a little gas during the shift to keep RPM up enough".

It can all be pretty vague but with a little practice most people will get it anyway. That amount of practice is necessary whether or not it is said correctly so the end result is ok, but if people are saying to add gas "when you get to the FP" then some folks will add it a little too late their first few tries.

[vw100]

i don't wanna make another thread so ...
when upshifting, (in the scenario where the rpm drop fast) WHY do so many people say add gas WHEN YOU GET TO THE FP the logic says that you should start giving just a tiny amount of throttle BEFORE getting there and the reason is to slow down the rate at which the RPM fall, so by the time the clutch gets to the FP and starts engaging, the engine is at the target rpm...
But if we start applying throttle ONLY WHEN the clutch starts hooking up than whats the point I don't think you can get a smooth shift like that. Please theholycow can you make this clear for me ?

You are correct. I usually say "give it a little gas during the shift to keep RPM up enough".

It can all be pretty vague but with a little practice most people will get it anyway. That amount of practice is necessary whether or not it is said correctly so the end result is ok, but if people are saying to add gas "when you get to the FP" then some folks will add it a little too late their first few tries.

thank you, i have another question though if you don't mind ...
When "steady accelerator rev matching" and you overshoot the rpm than i guess that's really bad for the clutch because it will be really hard to drag down the engine while the right food is keeping it spinning at a given rpm. (Of course it depends how much rpm over the target, if we are talking about like 1000 rpm over than we can smell the clutch right? if we just blip on the other hand, it will be smooth anyway and safe for the clutch ) is this right ?
Also when upshifting at 2000rpm first to second than in my car it will 900rpm into the 2nd. Now if i use a little accelerator to slow down the rpm fall-rate (lets say the amount that is required to do 1300 rpm at neutral) before releasing the clutch, that is really bad bad again right ?

[theholycow]

When "steady accelerator rev matching" and you overshoot the rpm than i guess that's really bad for the clutch because it will be really hard to drag down the engine while the right food is keeping it spinning at a given rpm.

The accelerator pedal does not directly correlate to RPM. It opens up the throttle, allowing air to flow in more easily. In neutral (or clutch disengaged) 10% of the pedal might make 4000 RPM, but in 4th at 25mph it might do almost nothing at all. Generally we're not talking about enough torque to make a big difference, so for our purposes you can consider the steady throttle rev match overshoot to be no worse than overshooting the rev match by the same amount with a blip.

(Of course it depends how much rpm over the target, if we are talking about like 1000 rpm over than we can smell the clutch right? if we just blip on the other hand, it will be smooth anyway and safe for the clutch ) is this right ?

If you smell clutch then it was pretty bad.

If it's smooth and that smoothness came from the rev match (rather than from slow clutch work making the clutch absorb the difference) then it was good, with either type of rev match.

Also when upshifting at 2000rpm first to second than in my car it will 900rpm into the 2nd. Now if i use a little accelerator to slow down the rpm fall-rate (lets say the amount that is required to do 1300 rpm at neutral) before releasing the clutch, that is really bad bad again right ?

I'm not sure what the scenario is but it sounds like it could be ok or just sloppy.

Is the scenario like this?
1. Reach 2000RPM in 1st.
2. Clutch pedal down and accelerator pedal partially up
3. Shifter -> 2nd, accelerator pedal still pressed partially, RPM falling but not falling as fast as without accelerator pedal input
4. RPM is 1300, clutch pedal begins to come up and clutch drags it down to 900

That's the worst case I can come up with from your question and that's not awful, just sloppy. You should try to improve on it. You should not panic or worry.

Overall, with all of these questions, we're splitting hairs and obsessing...it's really unnecessary.

[vw100]

When "steady accelerator rev matching" and you overshoot the rpm than i guess that's really bad for the clutch because it will be really hard to drag down the engine while the right food is keeping it spinning at a given rpm.

The accelerator pedal does not directly correlate to RPM. It opens up the throttle, allowing air to flow in more easily. In neutral (or clutch disengaged) 10% of the pedal might make 4000 RPM, but in 4th at 25mph it might do almost nothing at all. Generally we're not talking about enough torque to make a big difference, so for our purposes you can consider the steady throttle rev match overshoot to be no worse than overshooting the rev match by the same amount with a blip.

(Of course it depends how much rpm over the target, if we are talking about like 1000 rpm over than we can smell the clutch right? if we just blip on the other hand, it will be smooth anyway and safe for the clutch ) is this right ?

If you smell clutch then it was pretty bad.

If it's smooth and that smoothness came from the rev match (rather than from slow clutch work making the clutch absorb the difference) then it was good, with either type of rev match.

Also when upshifting at 2000rpm first to second than in my car it will 900rpm into the 2nd. Now if i use a little accelerator to slow down the rpm fall-rate (lets say the amount that is required to do 1300 rpm at neutral) before releasing the clutch, that is really bad bad again right ?

I'm not sure what the scenario is but it sounds like it could be ok or just sloppy.

Is the scenario like this?
1. Reach 2000RPM in 1st.
2. Clutch pedal down and accelerator pedal partially up
3. Shifter -> 2nd, accelerator pedal still pressed partially, RPM falling but not falling as fast as without accelerator pedal input
4. RPM is 1300, clutch pedal begins to come up and clutch drags it down to 900

That's the worst case I can come up with from your question and that's not awful, just sloppy. You should try to improve on it. You should not panic or worry.

Overall, with all of these questions, we're splitting hairs and obsessing...it's really unnecessary.

oh you got the last question perfectly. The thing is i don't have any problem when driving, i am just making up scenarios on my mind.
Anyway i got the answer for the last one since it is related with the first situation. The thing is that i always thought it would be a pain for the clutch to slow down the engine if it is configured to a certain rpm with the accelerator, well i was wrong

[vw100]

If you smell clutch then it was pretty bad.

If it's smooth and that smoothness came from the rev match (rather than from slow clutch work making the clutch absorb the difference) then it was good, with either type of rev match.

If i am in the right rpm zone when upshifting/downshifting than i can release the clutch as fast i like and it won't hurt it right ? As long as the rpm are where they need to be i can drop/pop/whatever the clutch or slowly engage it however i like. Of course the best is a quick smooth release but i am asking because i drove a car today and the rpm were dropping so fast that i had to be really quick with that clutch to get a smooth shift (without using accelerator) and it felt a little weird being that rough on the clutch

[theholycow]

If i am in the right rpm zone when upshifting/downshifting than i can release the clutch as fast i like and it won't hurt it right ? As long as the rpm are where they need to be i can drop/pop/whatever the clutch or slowly engage it however i like. Of course the best is a quick smooth release but i am asking because i drove a car today and the rpm were dropping so fast that i had to be really quick with that clutch to get a smooth shift (without using accelerator) and it felt a little weird being that rough on the clutch

Don't pop the clutch (as in sidestep, sliding your foot off the side of it and allowing it to pop up uncontrolled). That's bad regardless of rev-matching.

Other than that, if it's so perfectly rev-matched that you can dump the clutch really really fast then that's the best possible situation. It sounds like the car you drove today was great and your driving was too. What was the car?

[kamesama980]

A lot of these questions will become moot in time as the action of shifting becomes muscle memory. Just do what makes the shift feel smooth and right. A lot of the answers depend on your timing and the vehicle characteristics. For advanced drivers experienced with a particular car that can shift quickly and smoothly, it's normal to fully release the accelerator shifting and simply put it in gear and clutch-out when everything's lined up and depending on the specific engine, timing, driving style, driving purpose (IE DD vs racing), mood, etc may add gas before or after the FP.

[vw100]

If i am in the right rpm zone when upshifting/downshifting than i can release the clutch as fast i like and it won't hurt it right ? As long as the rpm are where they need to be i can drop/pop/whatever the clutch or slowly engage it however i like. Of course the best is a quick smooth release but i am asking because i drove a car today and the rpm were dropping so fast that i had to be really quick with that clutch to get a smooth shift (without using accelerator) and it felt a little weird being that rough on the clutch

Don't pop the clutch (as in sidestep, sliding your foot off the side of it and allowing it to pop up uncontrolled). That's bad regardless of rev-matching.

Other than that, if it's so perfectly rev-matched that you can dump the clutch really really fast then that's the best possible situation. It sounds like the car you drove today was great and your driving was too. What was the car?

it was a BMW e90 323i

[vw100]

Don't pop the clutch (as in sidestep, sliding your foot off the side of it and allowing it to pop up uncontrolled). That's bad regardless of rev-matching.

Other than that, if it's so perfectly rev-matched that you can dump the clutch really really fast then that's the best possible situation. It sounds like the car you drove today was great and your driving was too. What was the car?

Hi folks its me .. again
saw a friend today and kinda studied how he was releasing the clutch during a upshift. Well it was like a two step process :
1-release really quickly to fp. (like catching the engine at target rpm)
2-release it fully quickly.
So if you get what i mean, not like a continuous motion but instead going really fast to fp and than slow or pause for like 0.1s and than fully release. Not stopping there actually but just dividing it into steps and that is just for the purpose of catching the rpm i believe.
Actually i noticed that i do that unconsciously myself ! We catch the rpm where they should be and i can tell watching the tach the rpm will not actually go down and up again (just 200-300rpm at worst case and that is in 3rd and up, 1-2 it is perfectly revmatched or just 100rpm) , nor get dragged down from the clutch. So it is really smooth shift. Ihave studied how different parts work but i am really unsecure to make statements what is good and what is bad, so thats why i am asking sooo much and disturbing you
Well i know the faster the better with the clutch, but will this hurt anything, anything to worry about ? If rpm are this close to target i suppose its not a problem

[theholycow]

Varying the speed of moving the clutch pedal is normal and probably required in most vehicles.

Often I have to pause in the friction zone, sometimes I can give it a slow continuous motion through that part. I go quickly through dead zones above and below that part of the stroke.