Upshifting Issues on clutch with very small friction zone
- bk7794
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 1561
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:16 am
- Cars: 00 Civic (Stock)
- Location: Central CT
Re: Upshifting Issues on clutch with very small friction zon
I know my clutch is pretty crappy and has a crappy engagement zone just like yours, especially compared to the Fit I test drove. I assume the Fit had the stock honda clutch in it compared to my car that has some crappy no name brand. The Fit clutch was almost like it was designed to slip. The DBW wasn't bad on the Fit either compared to my cable civic.
2004 Honda Accord 2.4 5 Speed
1989 Ford Taurus SHO 5 speed
1989 Ford Taurus SHO 5 speed
Re: Upshifting Issues on clutch with very small friction zon
Any tips on how to smooth out your shifts with this type of clutch? For me the only way I can get a smooth upshift is to slip at the friction point especially in 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. The normal upshifting method of a controlled smooth clutch release just doesn't work for me.bk7794 wrote:I know my clutch is pretty crappy and has a crappy engagement zone just like yours, especially compared to the Fit I test drove.
- bk7794
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 1561
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:16 am
- Cars: 00 Civic (Stock)
- Location: Central CT
Re: Upshifting Issues on clutch with very small friction zon
I see that your clutch engages low, I'd try waiting a bit more before engaging the next gear. Let the revs fall a bit more. With a tach it is much easier than in a car with no tach. That is what I do.
Do you jerk forward or backwards generally?
Do you jerk forward or backwards generally?
2004 Honda Accord 2.4 5 Speed
1989 Ford Taurus SHO 5 speed
1989 Ford Taurus SHO 5 speed
-
- Master Standardshifter
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Re: Upshifting Issues on clutch with very small friction zon
There is nothing wrong with pausing at the friction point for a couple additional counts. Doing a shift with one smooth clutch motion doesn't work for me neither.
- bk7794
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 1561
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:16 am
- Cars: 00 Civic (Stock)
- Location: Central CT
Re: Upshifting Issues on clutch with very small friction zon
I can get it sometimes Though it can be quite difficult to repeat it.tankinbeans wrote:There is nothing wrong with pausing at the friction point for a couple additional counts. Doing a shift with one smooth clutch motion doesn't work for me neither.
2004 Honda Accord 2.4 5 Speed
1989 Ford Taurus SHO 5 speed
1989 Ford Taurus SHO 5 speed
Re: Upshifting Issues on clutch with very small friction zon
I know with my civic, it's especially the drive by wire that exaggerates the problem even more.
The DBW makes the pedal very sensitive, and theres a rough transition between gas/no gas that makes it really hard to give just a hint of gas to keep the revs from dropping when they get to the right RPM when letting out the clutch. I find a lot of times i just tap the pedal and it either gives no gas, or too much gas.
It's even tougher in the winter driving with boots when you lose a lot of feel in the pedal.
But yes, a deliberate pausing at the friction point definitely makes things a lot smoother, even if it's a very short pause.
The DBW makes the pedal very sensitive, and theres a rough transition between gas/no gas that makes it really hard to give just a hint of gas to keep the revs from dropping when they get to the right RPM when letting out the clutch. I find a lot of times i just tap the pedal and it either gives no gas, or too much gas.
It's even tougher in the winter driving with boots when you lose a lot of feel in the pedal.
But yes, a deliberate pausing at the friction point definitely makes things a lot smoother, even if it's a very short pause.
Re: Upshifting Issues on clutch with very small friction zon
first post for me. been lurking for a while and thankful for all the tips!
i have an acura tsx and have the same problem as OP... really low friction point and about 2 inch max until fully engaged. i tried shifting like most progressively clutched cars but got crazy whiplash from 1->2->3.
staying a full "one thousand one" at the friction zone with no gas and then rolling on the gas after foot is completely off the clutch seems to be the only way to smooth out the shifts.
its been a real pain in traffic. i stall at least 2 times while stuck in 30 minute bumper-to-bumper traffic... only saving grace is that the clutch is fairly light and my left leg isn't tired after driving in traffic...
now, if i can only figure out the downshift rev-matching with this drive-by-wire, i'd be set...
i have an acura tsx and have the same problem as OP... really low friction point and about 2 inch max until fully engaged. i tried shifting like most progressively clutched cars but got crazy whiplash from 1->2->3.
staying a full "one thousand one" at the friction zone with no gas and then rolling on the gas after foot is completely off the clutch seems to be the only way to smooth out the shifts.
its been a real pain in traffic. i stall at least 2 times while stuck in 30 minute bumper-to-bumper traffic... only saving grace is that the clutch is fairly light and my left leg isn't tired after driving in traffic...
now, if i can only figure out the downshift rev-matching with this drive-by-wire, i'd be set...
08' Acura TSX ASM/Ebony 6MT
Re: Upshifting Issues on clutch with very small friction zon
Yay, someone with my car! I have an 04..although yours has the real VTEC and better upgrades.havoktsx wrote:first post for me. been lurking for a while and thankful for all the tips!
i have an acura tsx and have the same problem as OP... really low friction point and about 2 inch max until fully engaged. i tried shifting like most progressively clutched cars but got crazy whiplash from 1->2->3.
staying a full "one thousand one" at the friction zone with no gas and then rolling on the gas after foot is completely off the clutch seems to be the only way to smooth out the shifts.
its been a real pain in traffic. i stall at least 2 times while stuck in 30 minute bumper-to-bumper traffic... only saving grace is that the clutch is fairly light and my left leg isn't tired after driving in traffic...
now, if i can only figure out the downshift rev-matching with this drive-by-wire, i'd be set...
I've finally gotten my shifts more consistent and the key to this car's clutch is to get back on the gas ASAP. Try it.
Re: Upshifting Issues on clutch with very small friction zon
Hi havoktsx,
At first I could only get a smooth shift on my 07 civic by slipping the clutch for a long time (1.5 seconds). After a couple more months of experimenting shifting technique, here are some tips that have worked for me:
(1) Timing/Rev Matching
If you can master timing of the release and rev matching on an upshift, you can release the clutch in a very fast motion and you won't even feel anything. That's the key, it's timing, and with our cars its hard to master with rev hang.
- You have to get the revs very close to where they are going to be in the next higher gear. Sounds easy enough, because you just have to wait (a long time) for our revs to drop and re-engage. However with our DBW lag and rev hang, this delay is long, and it's really hard to get it smooth. When you go from Acceleration -> clutch in to shift and wait 2 seconds for revs to drop (deceleration) -> re-engage and accelerate, even if you rev match exactly it doesn't feel right because of the long delay.
- The key to smoothness that I found is reducing this time as much as possible to reduce the 'shift shock' when power isn't going to the engine. I do this by timing my gas release as follows:
Case 1 (Engine is cold or AC is on): The revs drop very quickly in these cases, no rev hang. I push down the clutch the same time I release the gas, shift, and then re-engage the clutch quickly as rev's fall immediately to the right level. Sometimes on low rpm shifts, I may even delay the gas release just slightly to pump the revs up a bit before the fall to catch in time.
Case 2 (Any other time): The car rev hangs horribly. I release the gas completely for about 0.5 seconds, then push the clutch. Due to DBW lag, this timing means that when I push in the clutch, the revs drop immediately, and don't have any hang. This allows for the time for RPM drop to be GREATLY REDUCED, and it means I can shift very quickly and smoothly, keeping a nice acceleration curve.
The key is to have as little fluctuation as possible between Acceleration->Coast/Deceleration->Acceleration on the shift. Reducing timing by the method above has improved my shifting so much it's incredible!
(2) Clutch Re-Engagement and Gas
In my experience a clutch like our's can be used only in 2 ways: Slip it like crazy at the precise engagement point, or release quickly and smoothly. It seems like there is no middle ground with a moderate pace progressive engagement.
The key is to do it the second way (no slip) and also get on the gas immediately.
Something like this:
- Revs get to just about the right amount (this is a must)
- Simultaneously push the accelerator down very lightly (just enough to hold the revs, not increase them… this comes with practice), and release the clutch in one FAST and smooth motion (no slipping or holding at friction point).
This obviously takes practice, but one you master it, the abrupt low clutch becomes a non-issue and you'll hardly even notice it. I am finally beginning to really enjoy my car now, and using these techniques I can upshift at high/low rpms and get it smooth.
Down shifting just do the following:
- Clutch in
- Shift into lower gear
- Tap gas to make the revs jump up a bit higher than target RPM
- As revs start to level and come down, press accelerator very lightly (as in upshift), and do the fast clutch release again. Comes with practice, but timing the RPMs properly makes clutch work easy.
At first I could only get a smooth shift on my 07 civic by slipping the clutch for a long time (1.5 seconds). After a couple more months of experimenting shifting technique, here are some tips that have worked for me:
(1) Timing/Rev Matching
If you can master timing of the release and rev matching on an upshift, you can release the clutch in a very fast motion and you won't even feel anything. That's the key, it's timing, and with our cars its hard to master with rev hang.
- You have to get the revs very close to where they are going to be in the next higher gear. Sounds easy enough, because you just have to wait (a long time) for our revs to drop and re-engage. However with our DBW lag and rev hang, this delay is long, and it's really hard to get it smooth. When you go from Acceleration -> clutch in to shift and wait 2 seconds for revs to drop (deceleration) -> re-engage and accelerate, even if you rev match exactly it doesn't feel right because of the long delay.
- The key to smoothness that I found is reducing this time as much as possible to reduce the 'shift shock' when power isn't going to the engine. I do this by timing my gas release as follows:
Case 1 (Engine is cold or AC is on): The revs drop very quickly in these cases, no rev hang. I push down the clutch the same time I release the gas, shift, and then re-engage the clutch quickly as rev's fall immediately to the right level. Sometimes on low rpm shifts, I may even delay the gas release just slightly to pump the revs up a bit before the fall to catch in time.
Case 2 (Any other time): The car rev hangs horribly. I release the gas completely for about 0.5 seconds, then push the clutch. Due to DBW lag, this timing means that when I push in the clutch, the revs drop immediately, and don't have any hang. This allows for the time for RPM drop to be GREATLY REDUCED, and it means I can shift very quickly and smoothly, keeping a nice acceleration curve.
The key is to have as little fluctuation as possible between Acceleration->Coast/Deceleration->Acceleration on the shift. Reducing timing by the method above has improved my shifting so much it's incredible!
(2) Clutch Re-Engagement and Gas
In my experience a clutch like our's can be used only in 2 ways: Slip it like crazy at the precise engagement point, or release quickly and smoothly. It seems like there is no middle ground with a moderate pace progressive engagement.
The key is to do it the second way (no slip) and also get on the gas immediately.
Something like this:
- Revs get to just about the right amount (this is a must)
- Simultaneously push the accelerator down very lightly (just enough to hold the revs, not increase them… this comes with practice), and release the clutch in one FAST and smooth motion (no slipping or holding at friction point).
This obviously takes practice, but one you master it, the abrupt low clutch becomes a non-issue and you'll hardly even notice it. I am finally beginning to really enjoy my car now, and using these techniques I can upshift at high/low rpms and get it smooth.
Down shifting just do the following:
- Clutch in
- Shift into lower gear
- Tap gas to make the revs jump up a bit higher than target RPM
- As revs start to level and come down, press accelerator very lightly (as in upshift), and do the fast clutch release again. Comes with practice, but timing the RPMs properly makes clutch work easy.