Back to a standard shift

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Stelcom66
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Back to a standard shift

Post by Stelcom66 »

Due to a job change I bought a used automatic SUV last fall. Another recent job change along with retirement not too far away I decided to downsize to 1 vehicle. I still have a full size pickup truck, I use it mainly obtaining firewood for the wood stove, I'll eventually sell that. I traded the 2012 SUV in for a very hard to find (at least around here) used Toyota Tacoma with the 4 cylinder, 5 speed manual, and 4WD. Still working, so did want to drive a full size pickup daily. Certainly sacrificing cargo capacity but the enjoyment in driving this truck and somewhat better fuel economy is worth it IMO.

I believe Toyota no longer offers a standard shift with late model 4 cylinder Tacomas. The appeal of a standard shift is still there, more than I realized after getting the truck this weekend, To some 'enjoyment' and driving a truck may not make sense. I guess some of it is the practical crudeness of the whole package. I went from Bluetooth, a stereo that can play from a USB drive (do miss that) and a backup camera to none of those.

Overall I'd much rather drive this 2007 Toyota than a 2012 Honda CR-V. I've seen the term 'Amish' here. I guess I'm that, or an old hippie,
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potownrob
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by potownrob »

Stelcom66 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:25 pm Due to a job change I bought a used automatic SUV last fall. Another recent job change along with retirement not too far away I decided to downsize to 1 vehicle. I still have a full size pickup truck, I use it mainly obtaining firewood for the wood stove, I'll eventually sell that. I traded the 2012 SUV in for a very hard to find (at least around here) used Toyota Tacoma with the 4 cylinder, 5 speed manual, and 4WD. Still working, so did want to drive a full size pickup daily. Certainly sacrificing cargo capacity but the enjoyment in driving this truck and somewhat better fuel economy is worth it IMO.
hopefully better mileage than a full size pickup. even the newer V6 tacomas supposedly are capable of decent MPGs; not sure about older ones though...
I believe Toyota no longer offers a standard shift with late model 4 cylinder Tacomas. The appeal of a standard shift is still there, more than I realized after getting the truck this weekend, To some 'enjoyment' and driving a truck may not make sense. I guess some of it is the practical crudeness of the whole package. I went from Bluetooth, a stereo that can play from a USB drive (do miss that) and a backup camera to none of those.
yeah, they stopped offering the manual a couple of years after the newest gen tacoma came out, so model year 2019 or 20 eye think. i remember enjoying the youtube reviews of the manual tacomas.
Overall I'd much rather drive this 2007 Toyota than a 2012 Honda CR-V. I've seen the term 'Amish' here. I guess I'm that, or an old hippie,
SHOTS FIRED!! :o :shock: :!: :lol:
as the former owner of a 2012 cr-v, eye yam offend!! in all sirius ness, eye'd expect the tacoma to be more fun to drive.
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by Rope-Pusher »

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggvolDpzlZY[/youtube]

We need to remake this ad. Take Grandma out of the kitchen and into the barn, where she could be laying on her back under a vehicle, changing the clutch. The guy hauling his family on the horse-drawn wagon could be loading them all into a 1989 Dodge Caravan with Turbo 2.5 and 5-Speed Manual Trans. We could keep the ending line "Get to know what gooooood is"
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Stelcom66
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by Stelcom66 »

potownrob wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:02 am
yeah, they stopped offering the manual a couple of years after the newest gen tacoma came out, so model year 2019 or 20 eye think. i remember enjoying the youtube reviews of the manual tacomas.

I believe that's write - according to some members on the Tacoma 4rum. I thought maybe the manual was began to only be available with the V6, not sure if that's true as it doesn't really make ȼ.
potownrob wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:02 am
SHOTS FIRED!! :o :shock: :!: :lol:
as the former owner of a 2012 cr-v, eye yam offend!! in all sirius ness, eye'd expect the tacoma to be more fun to drive.

I liked the CR-V, but it was 'too nice', and too conventional for me, especially when I'll be off the clock for good, Plus, I missed driving a manual, darn it.

I do wonder why would Toy Yoda no longer offers the 2.7L 4 cylinder and manual transmission drivetrain, or maybe not at all? That's a great drivetrain IMO. I like how the truck is geared - kind of tall compared to other 4 cylinders I've had. In 5th gear engine RPMs at 65mph are about 2350.
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by IMBoring25 »

According to the Build and Price on the website, it's still available in the TRD Pro trim, which locks you into a V6 4WD double cab starting in the mid-$40s.

There are some reasons the Japanese have always been very package-oriented and have only gotten more so. There's efficiency in limiting the number of variations you produce. Each combination has to be developed, tested, and certified, extra variations often generate more unique parts that have to be stocked for production and for later repair use. Then there are efficiencies in actual manufacturing when you limit the number of configurations, and you have fewer oddball trucks languishing on lots because most people will settle.
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Re: Back to a standard shift

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Stelcom66 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:16 pm
potownrob wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:02 am
yeah, they stopped offering the manual a couple of years after the newest gen tacoma came out, so model year 2019 or 20 eye think. i remember enjoying the youtube reviews of the manual tacomas.

I believe that's write - according to some members on the Tacoma 4rum. I thought maybe the manual was began to only be available with the V6, not sure if that's true as it doesn't really make ȼ.
potownrob wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:02 am
SHOTS FIRED!! :o :shock: :!: :lol:
as the former owner of a 2012 cr-v, eye yam offend!! in all sirius ness, eye'd expect the tacoma to be more fun to drive.

I liked the CR-V, but it was 'too nice', and too conventional for me, especially when I'll be off the clock for good, Plus, I missed driving a manual, darn it.

I do wonder why would Toy Yoda no longer offers the 2.7L 4 cylinder and manual transmission drivetrain, or maybe not at all? That's a great drivetrain IMO. I like how the truck is geared - kind of tall compared to other 4 cylinders I've had. In 5th gear engine RPMs at 65mph are about 2350.
fur me the cr-v was too uncomfortable - eye had the ex model which, back then, didn't have adjustable lumbar support. the ride was also a little rough, though said to be better than most of its competitors. the mileage was also a little low. all this is not in comparison to a truck, which would obviously have a rougher ride and even worse mileage. eye also made the mistake of running the cr-v in econ mode, which probably did less to help mileage and more to make the drive boring. if eye went back, i'd get an ex-l and not use econ mode, oh and bet on hybrid technology.

as for the 2.7 litre in the tacoma, i found at least one 2022 tacoma with it, an SR5 model. the listing doesn't say (not sure why), but it doesn't look to be a 4wd model...
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
Stelcom66
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by Stelcom66 »

IMBoring25 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:11 am According to the Build and Price on the website, it's still available in the TRD Pro trim, which locks you into a V6 4WD double cab starting in the mid-$40s.

There are some reasons the Japanese have always been very package-oriented and have only gotten more so....
I checked out the website as well and was very surprised to see the base SR model only had a 6 speed automatic with the 4 cylinder. I guess a manual transmission is considered an upgrade now. A awhile back it was a given a manual was standard on the base model, Damn, $40k for a mid sized pickup truck. IMO a double cab defeats the purpose. If it doesn't have a sliding window in back you transport 8' lumber easier in a sedan with a fold down seat, with the trunk closed. I guess the reduced cost of a manual transmission is offset by the cost of a different assembly line, or configuration.
potownrob wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:41 am
fur me the cr-v was too uncomfortable - eye had the ex model which, back then, didn't have adjustable lumbar support. the ride was also a little rough, though said to be better than most of its competitors. the mileage was also a little low. all this is not in comparison to a truck, which would obviously have a rougher ride and even worse mileage. eye also made the mistake of running the cr-v in econ mode, which probably did less to help mileage and more to make the drive boring. if eye went back, i'd get an ex-l and not use econ mode, oh and bet on hybrid technology.

as for the 2.7 litre in the tacoma, i found at least one 2022 tacoma with it, an SR5 model. the listing doesn't say (not sure why), but it doesn't look to be a 4wd model...
I also found the CR-V not to be comfortable. It wasn't apparent on the initial test drive, but it seemed the front of the seat cushion was tilted down a bit and the wasn't an option to raise it, I also had the EX. My '99 Accord EX did have the electric option to do so, Even my '79 Saab GL 4MT had a mechanical lever to tilt the seat accordingly. The CR-V was available with a 5MT on the EX trim (maybe others) until 2006. I heard though, RPMs at 65 mph in 5th gear were about 3200 rpm, compared to about 2,000 with the 5 speed automatic.

I knew going in the Tacoma is a true truck, body on frame, so I expected a certain ride quality. It's very acceptable, especially on the highway, IMO. Worth the slight sacrifice of a smooth car like ride to have a standard shift. Feeling some road imperfections actually feels good. Kind of hard to portray - but it just promotes that it's a solidly build truck. My CR-V developed and annoying clunk over bumps, something in the suspension was loose.

I'm going to ask on the Tacoma forum what do 5MT (only available with the Gen 2 4 cylinder) owners do for shift points. The 5MT is geared tall for a 4 cylinder engine - and if I follow the (early to me) shift points it just doesn't seem right - so I've been adding about 3mph. Maybe because the engine is old, seems to lug a bit and not be comfortable when following the owner's manual shift points.
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by potownrob »

Stelcom66 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:08 pm
IMBoring25 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 12:11 am According to the Build and Price on the website, it's still available in the TRD Pro trim, which locks you into a V6 4WD double cab starting in the mid-$40s.

There are some reasons the Japanese have always been very package-oriented and have only gotten more so....
I checked out the website as well and was very surprised to see the base SR model only had a 6 speed automatic with the 4 cylinder. I guess a manual transmission is considered an upgrade now. A awhile back it was a given a manual was standard on the base model, Damn, $40k for a mid sized pickup truck. IMO a double cab defeats the purpose. If it doesn't have a sliding window in back you transport 8' lumber easier in a sedan with a fold down seat, with the trunk closed. I guess the reduced cost of a manual transmission is offset by the cost of a different assembly line, or configuration.
potownrob wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:41 am
fur me the cr-v was too uncomfortable - eye had the ex model which, back then, didn't have adjustable lumbar support. the ride was also a little rough, though said to be better than most of its competitors. the mileage was also a little low. all this is not in comparison to a truck, which would obviously have a rougher ride and even worse mileage. eye also made the mistake of running the cr-v in econ mode, which probably did less to help mileage and more to make the drive boring. if eye went back, i'd get an ex-l and not use econ mode, oh and bet on hybrid technology.

as for the 2.7 litre in the tacoma, i found at least one 2022 tacoma with it, an SR5 model. the listing doesn't say (not sure why), but it doesn't look to be a 4wd model...
I also found the CR-V not to be comfortable. It wasn't apparent on the initial test drive, but it seemed the front of the seat cushion was tilted down a bit and the wasn't an option to raise it, I also had the EX. My '99 Accord EX did have the electric option to do so, Even my '79 Saab GL 4MT had a mechanical lever to tilt the seat accordingly. The CR-V was available with a 5MT on the EX trim (maybe others) until 2006. I heard though, RPMs at 65 mph in 5th gear were about 3200 rpm, compared to about 2,000 with the 5 speed automatic.

I knew going in the Tacoma is a true truck, body on frame, so I expected a certain ride quality. It's very acceptable, especially on the highway, IMO. Worth the slight sacrifice of a smooth car like ride to have a standard shift. Feeling some road imperfections actually feels good. Kind of hard to portray - but it just promotes that it's a solidly build truck. My CR-V developed and annoying clunk over bumps, something in the suspension was loose.


I'm going to ask on the Tacoma forum what do 5MT (only available with the Gen 2 4 cylinder) owners do for shift points. The 5MT is geared tall for a 4 cylinder engine - and if I follow the (early to me) shift points it just doesn't seem right - so I've been adding about 3mph. Maybe because the engine is old, seems to lug a bit and not be comfortable when following the owner's manual shift points.
what's upsetting to me is that the 4 cylinder would benefit from having an 8 speed transmission vs. the older 6 speed. obviously designed to be a budget (if it can be considered that) pickup option. eye personally would look for a used nissan frontier before any tacoma, not that i don't like them, but the cost of entry even for old models is often very high.

eye also found the older accord seats better than the cr-v ones, at least in my 96 accord ex. eye don't remember the cr-v not having the seat pump to raise it and lower it (which does affect the seat bottom angle at least a little bit), but i haven't had that car since 2015. the 2015 accord sport i replaced the cr-v whiff didn't have more comfy seats, despite having all the power adjustments; those seats were just too hard, and the ride in that car was also too hard.
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by Rope-Pusher »

Even Amish Drivers Sometimes Operate While Impaired.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/am ... 8dae7eaa8b

I would imagine that the majority of impaired driving occurs in Slushbox vehicles. I'm waiting to read an article where a BEV driver was found to be impaired. It could happen.

Might the same occur when a person is operating an Autonomous vehicle (Is that moron an Ox? If the vehicle is Autonomous, then nobody is operating it, right?). Maybe if the vehicle had driver's controls and the impaired person over-rode the controls?
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Stelcom66
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by Stelcom66 »

potownrob wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 2:10 am what's upsetting to me is that the 4 cylinder would benefit from having an 8 speed transmission vs. the older 6 speed. obviously designed to be a budget (if it can be considered that) pickup option. eye personally would look for a used nissan frontier before any tacoma, not that i don't like them, but the cost of entry even for old models is often very high.

eye also found the older accord seats better than the cr-v ones, at least in my 96 accord ex. eye don't remember the cr-v not having the seat pump to raise it and lower it (which does affect the seat bottom angle at least a little bit), but i haven't had that car since 2015. the 2015 accord sport i replaced the cr-v whiff didn't have more comfy seats, despite having all the power adjustments; those seats were just too hard, and the ride in that car was also too hard.
I've heard multiple speed automatics can be kind of 'busy', shifting often. I guess that's what should happen for better efficiency. It seems the 4 cylinder
Tacoma would benefit from the 8 speed automatic.

I also looked at (online) Frontiers - they are in fact typically priced lower than the Tacomas. I don't know if a standard shift was available with their 4WD 2.5L 4 cylinder model, never found one. I saw just one V6 King Cab (wouldn't get a crew cab) with a standard shift, I think a 2010 with 187,000 miles. With the redesign that finally happened, I'm pretty sure they're only automatic.
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by IMBoring25 »

The shift points the manufacturer specifies are usually biased towards economy. Shifting somewhat later will usually (but not always) yield better performance. Shifting somewhat earlier still might yield better economy in a limited set of circumstances.
Stelcom66
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by Stelcom66 »

With my '99 Honda Accord 5MT, I absolutely exceeded the EPA fuel economy ratings. That car seemed to be fine with and do better upshifting at a lower rpm, than the manual specified, this truck seems to be the other way around. Then again, my new commute involves some moderate hills. I'll be doing 45-50 mph going up the incline in 4th, where the manual says 5th should be at 44 mph. Best to do what I've been doing for 40+ years, shifting by feel and what makes sense.

I do question some EPA results though. While I realize modern automatics now typically exceed manuals in efficiency - I think vehicles of my vintage still do better with manuals. Not just based on my experience - when researching 10+ year old Honda Fits many owners exceeded the automatic's EPA ratings with their 5 speed and 6 speed manuals, where the EPA said the 5 speed automatic would do better.
Last edited by Stelcom66 on Sat May 21, 2022 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by Rope-Pusher »

The EPA fuel mileage testing is what it is...a certain duty cycle that might correlate to how you use your vehicle, or...... not so much.

What can be said is that when the testing is closely controlled, the fuel mileage of a certain vehicle can be compared to another vehicle, but only as pertains to the duty cycle of the test. Also, the published results are reduced by a correction factor in an effort to show mileage figures that are more likely to correlate to actual vehicle usage.

In the olden days, the EPA might allow the Amish shift speeds to be dictated by a SIL - Shift Indicator Light, but then it was decided that not enough people shifted as the light indicated and shifting by the light was no longer allowed during the EPA test. I've seen test results where a higher-numerical final drive ratio showed better fuel mileage on the EPA test, because it allowed a Slushbox to get into its higher gear ranges sooner.

You could probably find a steady-state cruise speed which generates the best fuel mileage for a particular vehicle. If this was done for Amish & Slushbox versions of a given vehicle, you might be able to settle the question as to whether the Amish or the slushbox version is capable of higher fuel mileage, but maybe that would only be true on level ground and with no wind. Also, as cruising speed is increased or decreased, or throw in a few stoplights, acceleration test segments, etc. and the fuel mileage crown may change heads. Turbocharged small displacement engines seem to show very good fuel mileage on the EPA test cycle, but may actually consume quite a bit more fuel if you often operate in the boosted range.

In summary, there is a large variation in fuel mileage depending on how a vehicle is operated. Probably the surest way to use less fuel is to ride share or otherwise find ways to limit the miles you drive. If, instead of working from work 5 days each week you stay home 2 days each week and work the remote (Watch TV, go on, admit it) you might find you save 40% on your fuel purchases.
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IMBoring25
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by IMBoring25 »

Absolutely. My first car was built with a 3.27 axle. I would get around 24 on the back roads between cities and about 12 commuting in city traffic. When I put 3.55s in it, I got more like 20-22 on the back roads, but the city commute went up to close to 15.
Stelcom66
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Re: Back to a standard shift

Post by Stelcom66 »

Rope-Pusher wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:54 pm (Watch TV, go on, admit it)
No. I don't watch TV except for the news via antenna and Motorweek maybe once a week via streaming. R.I.P. Pat Goss.

I never had the option of carpooling since I mostly did field service. It is good some companies are permitting, or specifying at least some remote work. Saves on traffic and fuel.
Rope-Pusher wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:54 pm The EPA fuel mileage testing is what it is...a certain duty cycle that might correlate to how you use your vehicle, or...... not so much.
Yes - a general reference. Fuelly.com may not be all that accurate either - at least in some cases. You'll see the occasional extreme, high or low, or even 0.0 MPG posted which throws things off. If I went with the V6 with the 5 speed automatic as most Tacomas are - I'd see at least a moderate drop in fuel economy.

For me, the drivetrain combination of my recent purchase is well suited. Still working, so with today's fuel prices a full size V8 pickup would not have been a good choice. Given my somewhat Amish lifestyle, not missing much of the tech the former SUV has. I know I shouldn't let it annoy me so much, but I really hated the way the automatic SUV shifted going up the several hills I encountered on my commute. It would shift up, then a couple seconds later down again.

ironically with this truck I'll be stopping less to re-fuel. More of it of course, but I believe the tank is about 20 gallons. My CR-V was only 15.3, After 5 or 6 days I'd be close to 1/4 tank. Today, the Tacoma is at 1/2 a tank with 212 miles. I did this whole transaction kind of early, wasn't going to consolidate to 1 vehicle until I retired from full time work, but I know how rare a 4 cylinder mid sized, 4WD 5MT truck is so I went for it.
Last edited by Stelcom66 on Sat May 21, 2022 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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