Good Automatics

[bk7794]

I recently have been thinking of switching over to an Auto lately. Since my two older Hondas I really have not found a manual to daily drive I really liked. The Miata/BRZ are definitely fun but they're cars you really can't daily drive. Anyways, I recently took a drive in a colleague's Alfa with the ZF 8 speed. The thing is amazing. Any gear you're thinking about going into, it's already there. Sport mode pretty much reads your mind and sometimes takes it up a notch. Plus the way the drivetrain feels on full throttle and shift really creates an indescribable experience.

Perhaps because an Alfa touts itself as an engaging experience and it wouldn't be the same in a BMW 3 or 5 series I dunno... Can anyone relate or provide any insight? Are modern autos more fun? There's no rev hang to deal with. No shift shock. etc. If anyone has any experience with the 8 speed in another vehicle, I'd be interested in hearing about it. OR am I just dreaming...

[Rope-Pusher]

OR am I just dreaming...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU3zdAgiX8[/youtube]

It's not just the slushbox hardware - more than a few vehicles "Share" the ZF RWD 8-speed, but they don't share the software that determines much of the driving experience. I think you'll have to test drive in order to find if a particular vehicle is worth selling your horse and buggy and leaving the Amish community. We won't shun you, but still, it won't be the same.

[ClutchFork]

I like the good automatic in my 2000 Chevy chassi cab (van front) motorhome. It has a 454 V8 and some kind of overdrive transmission that is awesome in that at about 40,000 miles the trans cooler line sprung a bad leak about 200 miles from home. I drove it home. It was Memorial Day weekend. I stopped every 30-50 miles an poured a gallon of ATF in, which immediately ran out at my feet like a drunk taking a leak in an alley (please don't post a "fixt it" picture of this one). It basically ran 200 miles with only what tranny fluid was below the level of the pump that pumped it to the cooler or perhaps some kept going in the lines. Anyway, it has about 5000 miles since and has performed flawlessly. For me, a simple 4 speed automatic without a lot of fancy junk and built bulletproof is the way to go.

[Rope-Pusher]

I like the good automatic in my 2000 Chevy chassi cab (van front) motorhome. It has a 454 V8 and some kind of overdrive transmission that is awesome in that at about 40,000 miles the trans cooler line sprung a bad leak about 200 miles from home. I drove it home. It was Memorial Day weekend. I stopped every 30-50 miles an poured a gallon of ATF in, which immediately ran out at my feet like a drunk taking a leak in an alley (please don't post a "fixt it" picture of this one). It basically ran 200 miles with only what tranny fluid was below the level of the pump that pumped it to the cooler or perhaps some kept going in the lines. Anyway, it has about 5000 miles since and has performed flawlessly. For me, a simple 4 speed automatic without a lot of fancy junk and built bulletproof is the way to go.

Was that the same drunk that held his left thumb between the fingers of his right hand and pist his pance?

Yanno, 4 speeds slushboxes are just way too complicated and chancey compared to powerglide 2-speeds.

You could prolly run two powerglides end-to-end and have 4 ratios to play with and it would still be more simple and reliable than 4 speeds inside of one transmission case. If only Reverse was a different ratio than Low,....then you could get another forward gear ratio out of it by running Reverse in both powerglides at the same time.

[Johnf514]

It's not just the slushbox hardware - more than a few vehicles "Share" the ZF RWD 8-speed, but they don't share the software that determines much of the driving experience. I think you'll have to test drive in order to find if a particular vehicle is worth selling your horse and buggy and leaving the Amish community.

100% this. The ZF transmission does a great job in some applications, but TCU tuning is key here. Take some test drives and see what you like.

Also, if you find yourself loving an automatic vehicle but not necessarily the shifting, see if there is aftermarket support for transmission tuning. Once I'm out of my warranty period, I'll be upgrading my Stinger's shift logic to speed things up a bit. $99 reflash with Tork. Worth looking into at least.

[ClutchFork]

You could prolly run two powerglides end-to-end and have 4 ratios to play with and it would still be more simple and reliable than 4 speeds inside of one transmission case. If only Reverse was a different ratio than Low,....then you could get another forward gear ratio out of it by running Reverse in both powerglides at the same time.

That is a really clever idea. But at this rate, maybe we just go with a Lenco transmission.

But those too speed autos were perhaps the pinnacle of simplicity. You got the torque multiplication factor for the get out (equal to 1st gear), then the two speeds to cover for a normal 2nd and 3rd gears. All you needed was an engine with some guts, like a V8 of 350 cubics minimum.

Another advantage to an automatic with as few gears as possible is you get to always drive it flat out, pedal to the metal. ON that note, maybe a one speed with the torque multiplication serving as the get out and the rest for the drive. Fewer moving parts no linkage but for a reverse function (which could be performed by a reversible pumpkin to keep the tyranny simple. No clutches, just one ratio which could be direct drive if the pumpkin is the right ratio, and the slusher to spin you out of the hole. Now if I only had some automotive fabrication skills, I would go make me a car.

[Rope-Pusher]

You could prolly run two powerglides end-to-end and have 4 ratios to play with and it would still be more simple and reliable than 4 speeds inside of one transmission case. If only Reverse was a different ratio than Low,....then you could get another forward gear ratio out of it by running Reverse in both powerglides at the same time.

That is a really clever idea. But at this rate, maybe we just go with a Lenco transmission.

But those too speed autos were perhaps the pinnacle of simplicity. You got the torque multiplication factor for the get out (equal to 1st gear), then the two speeds to cover for a normal 2nd and 3rd gears. All you needed was an engine with some guts, like a V8 of 350 cubics minimum.

Another advantage to an automatic with as few gears as possible is you get to always drive it flat out, pedal to the metal. ON that note, maybe a one speed with the torque multiplication serving as the get out and the rest for the drive. Fewer moving parts no linkage but for a reverse function (which could be performed by a reversible pumpkin to keep the tyranny simple. No clutches, just one ratio which could be direct drive if the pumpkin is the right ratio, and the slusher to spin you out of the hole. Now if I only had some automotive fabrication skills, I would go make me a car.

It's a lot easier to tack on Amish trans on the back of another Amish trans - there are no hydraulic pumps and control circuits to marry-up. There used to be a thing called a "Clutch-flite", which was a Chrysler Torqueflite 3-Speed with a manual clutch replacing the torque converter. You didn't get the torque multiplication from the no-longer-existent torque converter, but you also didn't get the losses either. May have taken some of the joy and sense of accomplishment out of it, but for drag racing the bottom line is enhanced by banging out quick shifts and making repeatable runs.

[ClutchFork]

It's a lot easier to tack on Amish trans on the back of another Amish trans - there are no hydraulic pumps and control circuits to marry-up. There used to be a thing called a "Clutch-flite", which was a Chrysler Torqueflite 3-Speed with a manual clutch replacing the torque converter. You didn't get the torque multiplication from the no-longer-existent torque converter, but you also didn't get the losses either. May have taken some of the joy and sense of accomplishment out of it, but for drag racing the bottom line is enhanced by banging out quick shifts and making repeatable runs.

Nice!

Hey what about the Model T Ford? That had a two speed and I think no clutch, just bands, similar to an automatic transmission of at least recent years. I have no idea what these new-fangled auto trannies are like inside, its a big black box to me. Do they even have slush anymore?

[bk7794]

OR am I just dreaming...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbU3zdAgiX8[/youtube]

It's not just the slushbox hardware - more than a few vehicles "Share" the ZF RWD 8-speed, but they don't share the software that determines much of the driving experience. I think you'll have to test drive in order to find if a particular vehicle is worth selling your horse and buggy and leaving the Amish community. We won't shun you, but still, it won't be the same.

Yes, I had read about that somewhere. Apparently they're given free reign to tune it how they like?

.

100% this. The ZF transmission does a great job in some applications, but TCU tuning is key here. Take some test drives and see what you like.

Also, if you find yourself loving an automatic vehicle but not necessarily the shifting, see if there is aftermarket support for transmission tuning. Once I'm out of my warranty period, I'll be upgrading my Stinger's shift logic to speed things up a bit. $99 reflash with Tork. Worth looking into at least.

I'm very curious now. I'm sure it won't be the same in a Grand Cherokee as it is in the Alfa. How is the Stinger automatic? I was looking at maybe a G70 at some point down the road.

[potownrob]

bk, i think i mentioned this to you a while back, but the 8 speed in the Mini is said to be very good. Likewise, the BMWs with that tranny are said to shift very well. I personally wouldn't hesitate to get one of those, as a leased vehicle of course.

[IMBoring25]

Nice!

Hey what about the Model T Ford? That had a two speed and I think no clutch, just bands, similar to an automatic transmission of at least recent years. I have no idea what these new-fangled auto trannies are like inside, its a big black box to me. Do they even have slush anymore?

The Model T did have a clutch, not operated the way modern ones are, but it did have one.

I'm not aware of anything offered today with a conventional automatic and no torque converter, but there are a lot of vehicles marketed as automatics that are in fact AMTs or DCTs, mechanically similar to a manual transmission with one or two clutches but operated by the computer. A lot of them are seriously problematic and/or have short clutch life.

[potownrob]

Brings to mind the DCT in the last generation 4 cylinder TLX. That was said to be a very good transmission, and had a torque converter to smooth things out where need be.

[watkins]

Wife wanted a JL Wrangler, so we got her one. Between her 70+ mile round trip commute in stop and go traffic and her general unease with manuals, we got an auto. Truthfully I wouldn't have it any other way. The ZF eight speed is in every way superior to the garbage manual used in the JL. I absolutely hate having to deal with manual JLs at work.

That said, there is one issue: the programming doesn't have a clue what a rolling stop is. The shift algorithm won't downshifts below 3rd until the vehicle comes to a complete stop. The hasty downshift when you hit the gas in such conditions is rough and annoying.

[bk7794]

That's the problem nowadays. While it may have a manual, the manual will more than likely be garbage. I heard the manuals in the previous gen 3 series was. Especially compared to the 8 speed. I'm sure 95+% of their R&D goes to the auto...and it shows. Hell, I was working on my Accord last week doing the Clutch hydraulics. It's an 04 and you can definitely see that the manual was an afterthought. That was in 04...and the manual was probably a lot higher back then.

On a side note, it looks like the Bronco has a fun manual. I'd be curious to check it out.

[Rope-Pusher]

the garbage manual used in the JL. I absolutely hate having to deal with manual JLs at work.

What are the problems with the Amish JLs? Seriously. I'm not defending them....I don't know much about them. I really can't say if I've ever driven one. ....so, what's wrong? I've heard that the clutch release is lacking in reserve travel, as if it wasn't getting bled properly or something. Also, there were issues with the clutch pedal / release system which made it difficult to modulate the clutch engagement. There is also a couple problems with the shifter - the Select lever deflects too much, losing travel and allowing the cable bushing to walk off the end of the pin. Also, kinda hot off the presses, but the shifter doesn't actuate the cable far enough to travel from the center of the 3/4 gate to the center of the 1/2 gate - you end up with a very narrow 1/2 gate and for a lot of people this means blocked shifts into 1st and 2nd. Oh, and on first year's production, the Select cable gage length requirement was mis-calculated and you could have a vehicle where the cable adjuster range of authority was biased in one direction and you might not be able to get enough adjustment in the other direction out of it.

So, please share what symptoms the customers are experiencing and what you may know about issues with the hardware.