Toyota dumps Scion

[potownrob]

It was the most reliable car he's ever owned and overall one of the best car purchases he ever made. The problem was in the 90's Ford was rearing it's ugly head into most of Mazda's operations. I still have hazy memories of this car because it was shared between my parents... for whatever reason after that my dad decided to punish himself with jalopies. I pretty much grew up hating Ford because of this... it was hard as hell to get him to come with me to the dealership to check out a Focus ST because his last 3 tastes of Ford were a 1990 Ford Taurus, 1992 Ford Tempo, and a 1995 Ford Escort. I'm going to give the 1990 Taurus a pass because it was deemed a lemon lawfully but those other two cars were piles of crap.

yeah, today's fords are nothing like the fords of the 80s and 90s. there were gems like the crown vic/grand marquis/town car, but most of the other models were considered garbage. my family was more into GM, with my dad owning a vega (POS), an 86 olds 98 (nice driving and riding car plagued by electrical issues - probably his favorite car and our favorite to ride in), a 90 or 91 riviera (electrical gremlins again - another nice car though), 95 cutlass supreme (POS), early 90s S10 pickup (not bad), and a ~05 GMC Sierra (this one held up nicely until getting close to 200k miles when the engine developed major issues). he also had a couple of ford pickups (not bad) and a 92 taurus (quick but a POS). He now has a 15 subaru outback but made the mistake of getting the 4 banger. He didn't get the Outback so much to leave the american brands (his first choice was one of those GMC SUV things) but to have AWD to travel around the country year round (and the subaru was cheaper than other SUVs). My mom left the american camp much earlier, having switched in the early 90s from a cadillac cimarron to a toyota corolla and having mostly japanese cars ever since. note that dad had moved to florida with my stepmom by this point in time, and they had been separated since the late 80s. the cimarron was an electrical nightmare, especially after getting both front ended and rearended. mom's buick regal coupe (79?) before that was also always in the shop. we never had mazdas but knew they were (overall) decent cars, even during the ford era.

I don't think this is a valid excuse because I am a supporter of the Buick Verano and the A3 which has economy underpinnings. The civic architecture from the 9th generation isn't really that bad either speaking from first hand experience. I just didn't really understand where the money I was putting this to went exactly. The Buick Verano undercuts the ILX pretty much 2-3k every trim level and it honestly feels sophisticated up to everything minus the engine. The engine was a pig but this car really disguised well that it was a re-badge of a Chevy Cruze. I feel the same way about the A3... I think the ILX either needed to be priced closer to the Verano or quit the interior parts bin sharing with the Civic. Honda models should be cannibalizing Acura's at this point. There's really no point for this brand to be selling sedans... There's something better elsewhere in every spectrum of the map. On a side note I see the new Civic/Accord got the ugly Acura beak.

i've never driven an ILX, just basing things off what I've heard. What i heard (or read) is that the TSX is a lot nicer to drive than the ILX. I always assumed this was due to the underpinnings, and that's proably at least partly true. Due to my size and probable use of the car (passengers?? trash and clothing and food strewn everywhere??), I'd probably skip a compact luxury car anyway.

I went to Honda City and millennium Honda- they honestly were the same experience just different locations.

hmmmm...that sucks. our honda dealers tend to be more personable. kingston isn't high volume and really want the sale, and they're nice. friendly honda in potown is considered a nice dealer too. newburgh honda is higher volume but they were nice enough when i went there to test drive the Si sedan (that dealer and the kingston dealer are owned by the same people). i've never actually heard of a bad honda dealer. service department, sure, but not the sales side, so i am surprised by your experience. i think that, for you at least, you got the better car. for someone young (and not huge), the GTI is a much more fun car to drive. the engine is a lot more powerful, at least down low, the gearbox is said to be much better, the seats are more comfy, the car is cooler and you get a hatch too. for me, i might have trouble fitting (not just to drive it around, but for longer drives i would probably feel cramped like i did in my jetta) plus the boy racer image might be hard for 35 year old me to live with. i personally would probably aim for a highend version of the 1.8T model if I were to go for another VW (though I probably would resist after my experience with the dealer when I had the Jetta). for the accord (the I4 at least) you have to rev it up to get real power, even on the newer DI 2.4 litre engine. oh, and i too dislike the cheap looking front grills on the new civics and accords.

What makes me laugh is if you live here long enough you're just used to this type of behavior and wrecklessness. What really put things into perspective is I am subscribed to 'mrregularcarreviews' and how nervous this guy gets driving in NY and California really puts things into perspective that we're pretty much borderline insane. I really wouldn't consider myself an enthusiast driver, I'll open up on a highway every so often but I never beat on my car's consistently and constantly. With this being said when I tell people who aren't around here that I regularly do 75-80 mph they probably think I'm kidding them but the reality is I'm doing those speeds to keep up and I'm getting passed even LOL. I think it's a balancing act because when we aren't going 15-20 mph over the listed speed limit we're usually going 10 mph if we're lucky.

yeah, that is insane, come to think of it. luckily, most people don't drive like that around here. if you get on a real highway like the taconic or thruway, you'll come across some speed demons, but it's nothing like down your way. i think people are in less of a hurry around here, relatively speaking at least.

I feel like I followed through a similar path and things just kind of started clicking. I still have trouble shifting 1-2 smoothly consistently but I'm not like putting myself through the windshield either. I feel like the slow stuff around parking lots give me the most anxiety now because I usually have to make split second quick decisions and my mind fumbles at times. Sometimes if I panic I'll literally just put the clutch down and glide around the parking lot and put it back into 1st when I have too make an adjustment.

nothing wrong with what's happening to you or how you're dealing with it. i'd be lying if i said i never goofed up or never ran into a situation where i didn't know what to do or what gear to be in. i also sometimes shift into the wrong gear (usually while downshifting); i blame that on the 6 speed (only had 5 speeds before). even my dad, who had decades of shifting under his belt (though he now hasn't driven manual in about 10 years), would stall now and then.

I'm a foodee for sure so it really depends on what you're looking for and what budget you're willing to spend. Honestly if I ever move out of NY, I have a feeling I'm going to have to accept a downgrade of food places.

i'm not really a foodee; i just like to eat. i do have preferences and some expectations though. i think the thing with our area is the vast number and types of restaurants, number of diners etc. you have more diners than up my way, but there are more people down there. jersey is decent for diners and gives you an idea of what it's like further up this way. go down south and diners can be a foreign concept, especially 24 hour diners. i remember when i visited my friend in virginia, we had to go to IHOP for a late night snack, as there was no such thing as a diner there.

[theholycow]

~05 GMC Sierra (this one held up nicely until getting close to 200k miles when the engine developed major issues).

I'm surprised, those engines tend to go a lot further than 200,000 miles, it's usually frame rot that kills those trucks (also, for aggressive drivers or folks heavily modifying their engine for more power output, transmission failure). Replacement engines are a dime a dozen and I'm pretty sure it's an easy job.

I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a solid 2002 Sierra/Silverado needing an engine/transmission, if I could get it for a song and a dance. The 220,000 mile old drivetrain in mine is fine.

I also am surprised about the 1986 Olds 98's electrical gremlins. Was it something with the Computer Controlled Carburetor system? Or, for that matter, was that car an early recipient of fuel injection? If that was the case then those TBI systems were indeed troublesome...Tool Box Injection, as it were. My '87 Deville's TBI was problematic.

My mom left the american camp much earlier, having switched in the early 90s from a cadillac cimarron to a toyota corolla and having mostly japanese cars ever since. note that dad had moved to florida with my stepmom by this point in time, and they had been separated since the late 80s. the cimarron was an electrical nightmare, especially after getting both front ended and rearended.

Now THAT is no surprise! The Cimarron (which I accidentally, and comically, just mistyped as "Cimaroon") was a bad move.

mom's buick regal coupe (79?) before that was also always in the shop.

What for? That should have been a pretty solid, simple car with proven technologies.

yeah, that is insane, come to think of it. luckily, most people don't drive like that around here. if you get on a real highway like the taconic or thruway, you'll come across some speed demons, but it's nothing like down your way. i think people are in less of a hurry around here, relatively speaking at least.

Man, RI is awful. Since I live in the corner of the state and commute out of it within a few miles I rarely drive in RI anymore (and most of my driving is on low-traffic roads with sometimes decent other drivers), but a couple times lately I've taken I-95 from MA down to Warwick and I was reminded of what it was like when I used to drive in that area. Speed limits are too low and drivers are too fast; not a single driver operates less than 15 over. Most run 20 to 30 over. Where the limit is 50 or 55, most are going 75-80. It's ridiculous. Most of the speed limits on that road should be 10-20 higher and most of the drivers should be going 10mph slower than they do regardless. 65-70 through Cranston and Warwick would be reasonable as a limit and as an actual speed. The same attitude prevails on other roads in the area even when speed limits are decent (but most aren't).

[Teamwork]

yeah, today's fords are nothing like the fords of the 80s and 90s. there were gems like the crown vic/grand marquis/town car, but most of the other models were considered garbage. my family was more into GM, with my dad owning a vega (POS), an 86 olds 98 (nice driving and riding car plagued by electrical issues - probably his favorite car and our favorite to ride in), a 90 or 91 riviera (electrical gremlins again - another nice car though), 95 cutlass supreme (POS), early 90s S10 pickup (not bad), and a ~05 GMC Sierra (this one held up nicely until getting close to 200k miles when the engine developed major issues). he also had a couple of ford pickups (not bad) and a 92 taurus (quick but a POS). He now has a 15 subaru outback but made the mistake of getting the 4 banger. He didn't get the Outback so much to leave the american brands (his first choice was one of those GMC SUV things) but to have AWD to travel around the country year round (and the subaru was cheaper than other SUVs). My mom left the american camp much earlier, having switched in the early 90s from a cadillac cimarron to a toyota corolla and having mostly japanese cars ever since. note that dad had moved to florida with my stepmom by this point in time, and they had been separated since the late 80s. the cimarron was an electrical nightmare, especially after getting both front ended and rearended. mom's buick regal coupe (79?) before that was also always in the shop. we never had mazdas but knew they were (overall) decent cars, even during the ford era.

Yeah I completely understand that Ford is on a different generation life line these days then the crap they put out in the 80's and 90's. My parents were steered to the Taurus admittedly because of the Motortrend write up... this was during a time where used car sales were definitely riskier with less safety nets and believe that the car suffered undisclosed accidents before their ownership. By the end of it's life I seriously don't think there was anything that worked properly in that car including the engine and every other accessory. I think all of the doors opened and shut okay though. I think my dad in his younger days was the type of person who could've gotten "steered" by salespeople at dealerships if the sell was convincing. He's pretty much owned everything in terms of American and Japanese and has even had an Austin Healey sprite (wheel came off while taking a turn in it). He claims his first car he ever bought was bought for $120 and was '67 Chevy Impala- the only thing wrong with it was the floorwells rusted out and you could see the road underneath you while you drove it in various holes.

i've never driven an ILX, just basing things off what I've heard. What i heard (or read) is that the TSX is a lot nicer to drive than the ILX. I always assumed this was due to the underpinnings, and that's proably at least partly true. Due to my size and probable use of the car (passengers?? trash and clothing and food strewn everywhere??), I'd probably skip a compact luxury car anyway.

I'm probably a little below the average sized adult (5'9, 145 lbs) but I just love the compact market for the most part. I don't think I'd ever buy bigger until I needed too but most of the compacts today are really borderline mid size to me (I'm not sure if any classification backs this up). The Golf for me is actually refreshing because it feels very sleek and is pretty compact (translating to compact interior dimensions also). I like it honestly- but my girlfriends civic feels like a 90's mid size to me. We've sat 5 comfortably in that car and I seriously wouldn't attempt that in my GTI without getting rung around the neck by someone. When I had a '95 Corolla if you were above 6'1 and had to sit in the back you were literally sitting (laying) sideways in order to fit your legs in some contorted position. I mostly like driving compacts/subcompacts though for the driving dynamics and ease to park honestly in NY.

hmmmm...that sucks. our honda dealers tend to be more personable. kingston isn't high volume and really want the sale, and they're nice. friendly honda in potown is considered a nice dealer too. newburgh honda is higher volume but they were nice enough when i went there to test drive the Si sedan (that dealer and the kingston dealer are owned by the same people). i've never actually heard of a bad honda dealer. service department, sure, but not the sales side, so i am surprised by your experience. i think that, for you at least, you got the better car. for someone young (and not huge), the GTI is a much more fun car to drive. the engine is a lot more powerful, at least down low, the gearbox is said to be much better, the seats are more comfy, the car is cooler and you get a hatch too. for me, i might have trouble fitting (not just to drive it around, but for longer drives i would probably feel cramped like i did in my jetta) plus the boy racer image might be hard for 35 year old me to live with. i personally would probably aim for a highend version of the 1.8T model if I were to go for another VW (though I probably would resist after my experience with the dealer when I had the Jetta). for the accord (the I4 at least) you have to rev it up to get real power, even on the newer DI 2.4 litre engine. oh, and i too dislike the cheap looking front grills on the new civics and accords.

The concept sounds so foreign to me because the Honda/Toyota dealerships around here feel like assembly line factories. No personal pleasantries and just straight take it or leave it numbers. I feel like most of these dealerships have such high turn over rates for sales people that they are just training sheep to recycle lines and don't actually know anything about the cars they are selling or the competitors. I like Honda a lot more then Toyota at this current point and I just as easily could've been in an Accord sport or Civic SI if the sell and experience was where a lot of the competitors were at. I don't have too many quibbles about the GTI except for the infotainment unit being about one generation too outdated (still not using USB's somehow) but I feel like this is a car that I can be seen in at 30 and not sneered at. Matter a fact the average age of GTI owners is above a little where I'm at, and that makes me feel good haha.

I was originally in the market for a Golf TSI but the thing was I wanted a manual transmission. I needed to either compromise getting a GTI or compromise getting a stripper base Golf with 15'' hubcaps and a 5 speed unit they used in the early 2000's. I think I compromised the right way

yeah, that is insane, come to think of it. luckily, most people don't drive like that around here. if you get on a real highway like the taconic or thruway, you'll come across some speed demons, but it's nothing like down your way. i think people are in less of a hurry around here, relatively speaking at least.

As I've stated all of this... when I get into Jersey on the Garden State parkway this doesn't even come close to comparing. I just get all the way to the right lane and set cruise control. I think the posted speed limit is 70 mph (I might need this fact checked but it's definitely a higher posting then any LI highway) and at least 70% of these cars have to be going 90-100 mph. I usually set cruise control to 80 even- that's really just about as fast as i feel safe going routinely. It's funny because whenever I see an NJ plate weaving in and out on Long Island it's just to be expected and it's probably cake work for him if he lives out there.

i'm not really a foodee; i just like to eat. i do have preferences and some expectations though. i think the thing with our area is the vast number and types of restaurants, number of diners etc. you have more diners than up my way, but there are more people down there. jersey is decent for diners and gives you an idea of what it's like further up this way. go down south and diners can be a foreign concept, especially 24 hour diners. i remember when i visited my friend in virginia, we had to go to IHOP for a late night snack, as there was no such thing as a diner there.

I love diners honestly very versatile and mostly reliable if you're familiar with the product. It's funny because most people on LI figure diners are everywhere and 24/7... Hell they probably wish most established businesses are 24/7. We're probably (and California) are probably the only two places where banks are open on Sunday's and only close for 4 holidays a year. Consumerism at it's finest around here.

[potownrob]

~05 GMC Sierra (this one held up nicely until getting close to 200k miles when the engine developed major issues).

I'm surprised, those engines tend to go a lot further than 200,000 miles, it's usually frame rot that kills those trucks (also, for aggressive drivers or folks heavily modifying their engine for more power output, transmission failure). Replacement engines are a dime a dozen and I'm pretty sure it's an easy job.

I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a solid 2002 Sierra/Silverado needing an engine/transmission, if I could get it for a song and a dance. The 220,000 mile old drivetrain in mine is fine.

this was a florida truck - V8 and RWD, lower than our typical 4WD models up here, and no rust. not sure what the deal with the engine was, but he maintained it well (at a dealer or service center i think; he's getting too old to do much more than very basic maintenance like air filters and headlight bulbs himself) and he had nothing bad to say about the truck for most of the 9 years or so he owned it, and it looked like new inside and out. sounds like you should head south to find a new truck body.

I also am surprised about the 1986 Olds 98's electrical gremlins. Was it something with the Computer Controlled Carburetor system? Or, for that matter, was that car an early recipient of fuel injection? If that was the case then those TBI systems were indeed troublesome...Tool Box Injection, as it were. My '87 Deville's TBI was problematic.

pretty sure it was fuel injected, had the 3800 in it, VROOOOM!! most of the issues i remember involved i think the locks, windows and alternator. he had to replace the alternator multiple times. the engine caught on fire multiple times too later on in the car's life.

My mom left the american camp much earlier, having switched in the early 90s from a cadillac cimarron to a toyota corolla and having mostly japanese cars ever since. note that dad had moved to florida with my stepmom by this point in time, and they had been separated since the late 80s. the cimarron was an electrical nightmare, especially after getting both front ended and rearended.

Now THAT is no surprise! The Cimarron (which I accidentally, and comically, just mistyped as "Cimaroon") was a bad move.

cimarron wasn't as bad a car as it's made out to be, at least the V6 version. thing had nice leather seats, sunroof and speed, at least for that period in time. i think the accidents had a lot to do with the electrical issues. the ECU had to be replaced at one point. the car would go from crusing to galloping like a wild cimarron (that's a horse, right??) with no notice or throttle input.

mom's buick regal coupe (79?) before that was also always in the shop.

What for? That should have been a pretty solid, simple car with proven technologies.

the car was close to 10 years old when i remember her having problems with it. i don't remember specifics, but it was in the shop regularly, and mechanics even told her she should get rid of it.

yeah, that is insane, come to think of it. luckily, most people don't drive like that around here. if you get on a real highway like the taconic or thruway, you'll come across some speed demons, but it's nothing like down your way. i think people are in less of a hurry around here, relatively speaking at least.

Man, RI is awful. Since I live in the corner of the state and commute out of it within a few miles I rarely drive in RI anymore (and most of my driving is on low-traffic roads with sometimes decent other drivers), but a couple times lately I've taken I-95 from MA down to Warwick and I was reminded of what it was like when I used to drive in that area. Speed limits are too low and drivers are too fast; not a single driver operates less than 15 over. Most run 20 to 30 over. Where the limit is 50 or 55, most are going 75-80. It's ridiculous. Most of the speed limits on that road should be 10-20 higher and most of the drivers should be going 10mph slower than they do regardless. 65-70 through Cranston and Warwick would be reasonable as a limit and as an actual speed. The same attitude prevails on other roads in the area even when speed limits are decent (but most aren't).

yeah, it's nothing like that out here.

[potownrob]

Yeah I completely understand that Ford is on a different generation life line these days then the crap they put out in the 80's and 90's. My parents were steered to the Taurus admittedly because of the Motortrend write up... this was during a time where used car sales were definitely riskier with less safety nets and believe that the car suffered undisclosed accidents before their ownership. By the end of it's life I seriously don't think there was anything that worked properly in that car including the engine and every other accessory. I think all of the doors opened and shut okay though. I think my dad in his younger days was the type of person who could've gotten "steered" by salespeople at dealerships if the sell was convincing. He's pretty much owned everything in terms of American and Japanese and has even had an Austin Healey sprite (wheel came off while taking a turn in it). He claims his first car he ever bought was bought for $120 and was '67 Chevy Impala- the only thing wrong with it was the floorwells rusted out and you could see the road underneath you while you drove it in various holes.

this taurus was a lot like yours then. it was actually my stepmom's (not my dad's), but they used it as the family car, while it was running at least. the 95 cutlass supreme she replaced it with was not much better...i remember rusted floorboards in a lot of gm cars from the 80s back in the day.

I'm probably a little below the average sized adult (5'9, 145 lbs) but I just love the compact market for the most part. I don't think I'd ever buy bigger until I needed too but most of the compacts today are really borderline mid size to me (I'm not sure if any classification backs this up). The Golf for me is actually refreshing because it feels very sleek and is pretty compact (translating to compact interior dimensions also). I like it honestly- but my girlfriends civic feels like a 90's mid size to me. We've sat 5 comfortably in that car and I seriously wouldn't attempt that in my GTI without getting rung around the neck by someone. When I had a '95 Corolla if you were above 6'1 and had to sit in the back you were literally sitting (laying) sideways in order to fit your legs in some contorted position. I mostly like driving compacts/subcompacts though for the driving dynamics and ease to park honestly in NY.

i'm 5'11" and well over 300 lbs., so i don't really fit in most compact cars. I used to be able to deal with the cramped spaces, especially when i was smaller, but i have a harder time now that i'm older. my first car was a 91 corolla. i wasn't this big then. comfy seats, but it was a tight fit. one time we had 7 people in that car. another time we had 6 or 7 people in my 94 civic, but that car had better ergonomics (best ever??). 93 accord felt carvernous up front (and not bad in the back) and the low beltline was a thing to behold (probably similar to the older prelude you rode in). Jetta felt roomy at first, but then quickly felt small. it wasn't a matter of not being able to push the seat back enough, but rather room on the sides. the seats weren't comfortable either. that engine though

The concept sounds so foreign to me because the Honda/Toyota dealerships around here feel like assembly line factories. No personal pleasantries and just straight take it or leave it numbers. I feel like most of these dealerships have such high turn over rates for sales people that they are just training sheep to recycle lines and don't actually know anything about the cars they are selling or the competitors. I like Honda a lot more then Toyota at this current point and I just as easily could've been in an Accord sport or Civic SI if the sell and experience was where a lot of the competitors were at. I don't have too many quibbles about the GTI except for the infotainment unit being about one generation too outdated (still not using USB's somehow) but I feel like this is a car that I can be seen in at 30 and not sneered at. Matter a fact the average age of GTI owners is above a little where I'm at, and that makes me feel good haha.

I was originally in the market for a Golf TSI but the thing was I wanted a manual transmission. I needed to either compromise getting a GTI or compromise getting a stripper base Golf with 15'' hubcaps and a 5 speed unit they used in the early 2000's. I think I compromised the right way

didn't realize/forgot they restricted the manual even on VWs. i thought you could at least get a midline golf with the manual; i know the jetta at least used to be able to be had with a manual in se if not sel trim. the cc and passat also offered the manual on midline models and the cc (and older passat) was nicer to begin with. also keep forgetting the GTI manual is much better than the regular manual. as for the bad dealer experience, i guess it makes sense for your area. they are probably higher volume dealers. the kingston dealer i go to sits empty most of the time i'm there with the salesmen sitting bored at their desks or talking with other salesmen and coworkers. some of them have been there for decades. when i was trying to negotiate the price of the accord (to base the lease on), the finance manager (who was apparently filling in for the sales manager) told my salesman that the accord sport manual is hard to find and rare and that they can't work much on price. the day i made the deal, the finance manager ended up lowering the numbers til i was happy, due mainly to a goof-up by the salesman who was filling in for my salesman that day (it was the last day of the month by the way). they were running around crazy and the finance manager ended up going to the hospital with some stomach issues (ulcers?? lol) within a few days.

As I've stated all of this... when I get into Jersey on the Garden State parkway this doesn't even come close to comparing. I just get all the way to the right lane and set cruise control. I think the posted speed limit is 70 mph (I might need this fact checked but it's definitely a higher posting then any LI highway) and at least 70% of these cars have to be going 90-100 mph. I usually set cruise control to 80 even- that's really just about as fast as i feel safe going routinely. It's funny because whenever I see an NJ plate weaving in and out on Long Island it's just to be expected and it's probably cake work for him if he lives out there.

not sure, but i think the highest i've seen may have been 65, and they're just going really fast. i notice this more on the nj turnpike than the garden state, though my garden state usage is more limited. even 287 seems worse, but at least it has several lanes. thruway down near the city and jersey can be bad too. i try to stick to 10 over, even if everyone's going 15-20 over. my opinion of and experience with jersey drivers is not nearly as bad as what i hear about. it's the massholes (sorry watkins and cow) you have to watch out for. and the slow VT drivers too.

I love diners honestly very versatile and mostly reliable if you're familiar with the product. It's funny because most people on LI figure diners are everywhere and 24/7... Hell they probably wish most established businesses are 24/7. We're probably (and California) are probably the only two places where banks are open on Sunday's and only close for 4 holidays a year. Consumerism at it's finest around here.

yeah, in many ways, you've got it good there. close to the city, quick food anytime, lots of hot chicks (not always clean though), nice beach (in season) nearby...

[Teamwork]

i'm 5'11" and well over 300 lbs., so i don't really fit in most compact cars. I used to be able to deal with the cramped spaces, especially when i was smaller, but i have a harder time now that i'm older. my first car was a 91 corolla. i wasn't this big then. comfy seats, but it was a tight fit. one time we had 7 people in that car. another time we had 6 or 7 people in my 94 civic, but that car had better ergonomics (best ever??). 93 accord felt carvernous up front (and not bad in the back) and the low beltline was a thing to behold (probably similar to the older prelude you rode in). Jetta felt roomy at first, but then quickly felt small. it wasn't a matter of not being able to push the seat back enough, but rather room on the sides. the seats weren't comfortable either. that engine though

This sounds like valid reasoning for not wanting or liking compact cars. I'm kind of bothered though again how compacts in the 90's are pretty much subcompacts of now. I would really like for cars just to stop getting bigger like it's evolution. I test drove in my time even sub compacts and felt like I could live with their dimensions on a daily. I just like how they drive naturally and the being easier to park is just icing on the cake. There's very few times I make corrections in a parking space. Sometimes I wonder how Suburban owners deal with making 5-6 point corrections in parking spots around here but then I realize that most SUV owners just park crooked or over the line anyway.

didn't realize/forgot they restricted the manual even on VWs. i thought you could at least get a midline golf with the manual; i know the jetta at least used to be able to be had with a manual in se if not sel trim. the cc and passat also offered the manual on midline models and the cc (and older passat) was nicer to begin with. also keep forgetting the GTI manual is much better than the regular manual.

I feel like VW and Mazda are constantly on my short list because of the accessibility of it. Audi basically made it go extinct and I have a feeling it'll trickle down but not as immediate as many think. Not too sure how Mazda gets away with it- they are relatively a small company that doesn't really sell well in the US. VW I think does it as a sales technique to push people up into more expensive cars or at least it seems that way. GTI offers manual on every trim level though and it probably ends up outselling the loved DSG.

yeah, in many ways, you've got it good there. close to the city, quick food anytime, lots of hot chicks (not always clean though), nice beach (in season) nearby...

I dig it, but I'd dig it more if someone could pay for me to live here. That would be the biggest contributor to me moving out of state and maybe the only one.

[potownrob]

This sounds like valid reasoning for not wanting or liking compact cars. I'm kind of bothered though again how compacts in the 90's are pretty much subcompacts of now. I would really like for cars just to stop getting bigger like it's evolution. I test drove in my time even sub compacts and felt like I could live with their dimensions on a daily. I just like how they drive naturally and the being easier to park is just icing on the cake. There's very few times I make corrections in a parking space. Sometimes I wonder how Suburban owners deal with making 5-6 point corrections in parking spots around here but then I realize that most SUV owners just park crooked or over the line anyway.

obviously i don't mind it too much, but i can see why you feel that way. i even fit in most subcompacts these days, especially the fit. i was at a greek funeral (i'm half greek) last week, and one of the greeks right in front of us in the procession to the cemetery had a versa sedan - the cheapest nissan you can get stateside, as far as i know at least - and was driving it like a maniac. i thought it was cool that this was probably similar to the small simple cars of greece. i didn't get to check if it was a manual as he parked far away from the procession at the cemetery so he could leave on his own. meanwhile my closer cousins and their relatives and greek "colleagues" (mostly diner owners and their families) were rocking their leased pimped to the gills bmws. the cheap guy with the versa even had the requisite special order plate with his last name on it.

I feel like VW and Mazda are constantly on my short list because of the accessibility of it. Audi basically made it go extinct and I have a feeling it'll trickle down but not as immediate as many think. Not too sure how Mazda gets away with it- they are relatively a small company that doesn't really sell well in the US. VW I think does it as a sales technique to push people up into more expensive cars or at least it seems that way. GTI offers manual on every trim level though and it probably ends up outselling the loved DSG.

remember that the masses are mostly clueless automatic drivers, and the dealers know how to sell what they have on the lots. they do have some options to make people feel special, and they do offer more models and trim levels with manuals than other companies. in this day and age, that's at least worth something.

I dig it, but I'd dig it more if someone could pay for me to live here. That would be the biggest contributor to me moving out of state and maybe the only one.

i hear you. it costs too much to live here, and probably even more where you are. moving out of the area you risk there not being jobs or at least decent paying jobs. it's gotta be better somewhere though.

[Teamwork]

obviously i don't mind it too much, but i can see why you feel that way. i even fit in most subcompacts these days, especially the fit.

The problem that I have with subcompact class has nothing to do with interior dimensions of the vehicle, the lawn mower esque engines, or even the barer than usual feature set but it usually comes down to the omission of a center arm rest/storage cubby. I'm not sure why makers think this is a feasible cost cutting option because I really don't know anyone who wouldn't rest their elbow somewhere to a point. I really enjoyed my time with the Honda Fit and during that te drive had a total of 4 adults in the vehicle. The Chevy Sonic was another car that was a center arm rest and a few padded spots away from being seriously considered also. I really liked the reviews of the Scion IQ also and felt like that would've been up my alley as well. These cars if kept for awhile seem to pay back their owners in dividends (low running costs, low insurance, not as much to go wrong) and I like that.

remember that the masses are mostly clueless automatic drivers, and the dealers know how to sell what they have on the lots. they do have some options to make people feel special, and they do offer more models and trim levels with manuals than other companies. in this day and age, that's at least worth something.

I was thinking somehow about Scion and thinking what if they were like a division of Pontiac back in their prime or even something like a sub division of the ST models that Ford is starting to spawn everywhere. I totally forgot about Ford in the last post with there ST and RS models being manual only.In the end Scion was pretty much just economy Toyota's that you couldn't negotiate for a lower price. How was this supposed to be a youth brand again? I don't think I've ever heard a 17-21 year old ever say they really wanted a Toyota Echo with a 4 speed automatic.

i hear you. it costs too much to live here, and probably even more where you are. moving out of the area you risk there not being jobs or at least decent paying jobs. it's gotta be better somewhere though.

A lot of my extended family has made it out and moved down south to the Carolina's and haven't looked back. It really is a joke how expensive it is to live in NY when you price out apartment's and co-ops in other states. I guess I'll have to get used to alcohol sale curfews and non 24-7 diners

[theholycow]

I agree on armrests, but the need for that is not universal. My wife never uses an armrest, she even flips it up if it is movable, and I've seen other people who drive like that too.

Armrest positions may be the most important thing about a car for me. It's a go/no-go thing...if armrests are not present and in the right positions I will be MISERABLE and hate the car no matter how awesome it is. Armrests missing, too low, or too far away can be padded into position, but armrests too close or too high can make the best car impossible for me.

[potownrob]

too lazy/tired to reply to this thread; will reply when more awake/motivated

[Teamwork]

I agree on armrests, but the need for that is not universal. My wife never uses an armrest, she even flips it up if it is movable, and I've seen other people who drive like that too.

Armrest positions may be the most important thing about a car for me. It's a go/no-go thing...if armrests are not present and in the right positions I will be MISERABLE and hate the car no matter how awesome it is. Armrests missing, too low, or too far away can be padded into position, but armrests too close or too high can make the best car impossible for me.

Within an automatic it was literally something that was essentially a deal breaker for me and for the a manual I still kind of use both the door and center one from time to time though admittedly not as much of a reliance. The one in my GTI is near perfect on an ergonomic and comfort level because it's the epitome of a tilt and telescoping steering wheel where it can extend and height adjust. Nit picking, the storage aspect of it is weak my Samsung Galaxy 6 can't fit in it even angling without it being able to shut properly but I'd trade storage for this type of adjustability any day of the week.

One of the worst ones I think I experienced in modern times was the Chevy Sonic though which had a seat mounted sliver one that sub compacts sometimes have for the driver. The issue was for my body frame at 5'9-5'10 where it was mounted seat wise on the height of the seat it was pretty much up to the mid level of my chest and entirely too high. I know most people these days in the ages of 18-40 probably care more about having cell phone blu tooth connectivity standard in cars then things like this which is mind blowing to me.

[watkins]

65-70 through Cranston and Warwick would be reasonable as a limit and as an actual speed. The same attitude prevails on other roads in the area even when speed limits are decent (but most aren't).

Your problem here is the Cranston and Warwick thing in and of itself. Nothing road related is good in that area of the state. Killed my suspension living there for two years.

[Rope-Pusher]

YES, WE NEED THOSE STINKIN’ BADGES - From Autoline Daily

With most of Scion’s lineup getting absorbed into Toyota we’re getting a few name changes. The iA will get rebadged as the Yaris iA. As you may know the iA is already called the Yaris in other markets. The iM now becomes the Corolla iM and there’s a little history there too. The iM is called the Auris in other markets and the first generation of that car was based on the Corolla. And finally the FR-S will become the 86, which is its name in the rest of the world. The little sports car will also get a few exterior and interior changes as well as minor tweaks to the suspension and powertrain.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/to ... s-2016.htm

[Rope-Pusher]

Toyota announced that the FR-S name will be changed so that the vehicle, for 2017, will be known as it is elsewhere, as the Toyota “86.”

That’s right. Before letters. Now a number.

Again, the “86” wasn’t some fanciful number thought up by some people in the Toyota marketing department.

Rather, it goes back to the AE86 series of the Corolla, which was produced in the mid-1980s.
This is a Corolla that isn’t like the one that is sitting on the floor of your Toyota dealership right now. Rather, the AE86—known in Japan as the Hachi-Roku, which means “8-6”—is a front-engine, rear-drive coupe that was used for racing and other high-speed activities.

[potownrob]

maybe now, finally people will realize the reason for this car (the "86")