Tow Missiles?

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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by Squint » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:24 pm

tankinbeans wrote:Squint, was that the same Tundra that could, according to the adverts, pull a space shuttle, the moon, several small asteroids, and your step mother with no modifications?
Actually, more loaded than that. You could get that one for less because it didn't have the creature comforts of moonroofs everywhere, rear seat DVD players, extra steps to get to the bed easier, etc...

And the secret of the space shuttle pull was only going about 300 yards, lowering tire pressure, adding weight to the bed of the truck, and keeping it moving at a slow-ish, steady pace. 300-ish meters in ~4 minutes.

Here is another source.
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by theholycow » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:15 pm

On half-ton pickups:

IMBoring25 covered the fuel economy and insurance. Also consider parts cost, especially tires. Additionally there's comfort, driveability, and ride. 3/4 and 1 ton trucks will ride more trucky, maneuver with less agility, accelerate slower (given that we're still talking about the same engine), etc. Modern half-ton trucks are rated for decent loads (and suffer no consequence from hauling a lot more) and huge towing. Of course the heavier trucks are also built and rated up from where they used to be too, but a modern half ton is plenty for towing your car on a trailer or hauling a ton (literally -- realistically more) of sheetrock from Home Depot. Even my 2002, from just before the tow rating arms race, is plenty for that kind of duty.

The class that I don't see a purpose for is the 3/4 ton. They tend to be almost identical to the SRW 1 ton model, just with slightly softer springs and maybe a different final drive ratio. We might have had this discussion before.

Despite my half ton having performed perfectly for the heaviest jobs I asked of it, I'd prefer my next to be a SRW 1 ton (or 3/4 ton, depending on what's available). The way I use it, the disadvantages don't matter. I occasionally want to do something that's realistically too heavy for a 1/2 ton. Plus, if I had a decent 1 ton, I might convince my dad to borrow it instead of doing dangerous stuff with his Tundra.
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by theholycow » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:18 pm

On towing the space shuttle:

Meh. Dragging something slowly on smooth level land a short distance once can be done by just about anything. A Civic might even have succeeded. The demonstration has no bearing on trailering capability, which is about stability, braking, etc.
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by Rope-Pusher » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:22 pm

What Is SAE J2807? What Does It Really Mean For Your Pick-m-Up Truck?

Here are the main test methods trucks would be measured on as per J2807:

Cooling capability on a long highway upgrade modeled on the Davis Dam grade on Arizona SR 68;
Launch and acceleration performance on a level road and a 12 percent upgrade;
Combined handling performance – understeer and trailer sway;
Combined braking performance – stopping distance and parking brake-hold on grade; and
Structural performance for the vehicle and hitch or hitch receiver.
New calculations for trailer weight ratings: In addition to the performance standards, SAE J2807 also uses a specific set of assumptions to calculate maximum trailer weight ratings:

For light-duty full-size pickups (GVWR < 8,500 lbs.), SAE J2807 assumes that the tow vehicle includes any options with higher than 33 percent penetration;
It assumes there is both a driver and passenger in the vehicle, each weighing 150 pounds;
It assumes that tow vehicles also include up to 70 pounds of aftermarket hitch equipment (where applicable); and
For conventional trailer towing, SAE J2807 assumes that 10 percent of the trailer weight is on the tongue.
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by theholycow » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:37 pm


· Cooling capability on a long highway upgrade modeled on the Davis Dam grade on Arizona SR 68;
· Launch and acceleration performance on a level road and a 12 percent upgrade;
· Combined handling performance - understeer and trailer sway;
· Combined braking performance -stopping distance and parking brake-hold on grade; and
· Structural performance for the vehicle and hitch or hitch receiver.
Good.
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by Rope-Pusher » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:51 pm

GM, too, removes parts to weigh pickups, boost payload ratings
Practice juices towing claims

General Motors says it deletes heavy items such as the rear bumper from certain pickups when it weighs them in order to boost the vehicles’ maximum payload ratings.

GM says it adopted the practice for the 2014 model year in response to competitive pressures as it launched redesigned full-sized pickups.

The practice is similar to one adopted by Ford Motor Co. about four years ago to show a maximum payload that is larger than would be possible if the automaker used the standard base curb weight of a pickup.

Chrysler Group’s Ram brand uses only an unmodified base curb weight on the Ram pickup.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2014073 ... ad-ratings#
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by theholycow » Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:44 pm

I thought there was a Federal law requiring a label near the GVWR label, detailing the weight of additional equipment that reduces payload capacity. I saw such a label on a 2011 Tundra and I think it cited the FMVSS regulation that calls for it.
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by Squint » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:38 pm

theholycow wrote:On towing the space shuttle:

Meh. Dragging something slowly on smooth level land a short distance once can be done by just about anything. A Civic might even have succeeded. The demonstration has no bearing on trailering capability, which is about stability, braking, etc.
In the second article I linked, someone talked to one of the Toyota engineers and the engineer pretty much said that you only really needed the ability to produce ~400 lb-ft of torque and grip the dry pavement. So any vehicle capable of that could have pulled the shuttle.
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by Rope-Pusher » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:09 pm

theholycow wrote:I thought there was a Federal law requiring a label near the GVWR label, detailing the weight of additional equipment that reduces payload capacity. I saw such a label on a 2011 Tundra and I think it cited the FMVSS regulation that calls for it.
Eye ham shur that Fraud and Gimmick Motors both followed the letter of the law.
Delete-optioning down a model below standard equipment levels is a slick trick, but I'm sure the customer who kept his rear bumper, jack and spare tire is expecting he can tow what the rating said he could tow.
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by watkins » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:15 pm

IMBoring25 wrote:Don't assume the same shell and the same engine gives the same mileage. In addition to the weight difference, the heavier-chassis trucks will typically have lower gearing, a transmission less optimized for fuel economy, and fewer of the tech tricks that boost the economy in the trucks the EPA cares about right now (in your given case, the Ram 1500 has an 8-speed auto vice a 6-speed for the 2500, stop-start, active grille shutters, and available air suspension that lowers the truck at speed to reduce underbody losses). At the mileage numbers involved here, we're also talking about the range where a 1 or 2 MPG difference constitutes a pretty significant amount of money if you drive it much. On the money front, a 3/4-ton can also be expected to be more expensive to insure (trucks are already brutal, especially if you have to have 4WD) and, depending on your state, more expensive to tag. On the other-tradeoffs front, the heavier-chassis trucks will ride more firmly and likely will not handle as well.
All of that fuel economy technology you mentioned is new for 2014 or 2015 model year trucks. Relatively uncommon still. I see pretty damn similar fuel economy numbers on 1500s and 2500s whenever I get in one. To me, at least, a mile or two a gallon just doesnt matter. I gave up on fuel economy a long time ago unless Im going very long distances.
Stiffer rides are preferable to some people, so that isnt much of an argument in favor of either option. Besides, since we are already mentioning new features, 2500s can be had with coil springs all around for a softer and more controlled ride. There is also the option of lowering tire pressure. We see that a lot with customers who only haul near capacity on a rare basis.

Ideally I would buy a Cummins-powered Ram with the 6 speed manual. Better fuel economy than the Hemi, and way more fun. Only downside is that a heavier plow can be hung off a Hemi truck than a Cummins truck due to front spring load. Not that I would care for my own little driveway.
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by Rope-Pusher » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:20 pm

How GM missed the truck fuel economy race, and how it will return


The pickup truck fuel economy race is between Chrysler’s Ram 1500 and the upcoming aluminum-bodied F-150 coming late this year.
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But the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra should’ve been contenders.

Six years ago, GM was installing production machinery in its Tonowanda, N.Y., engine plant to build an advanced, 4.5-liter Duramax diesel V-8 for the light duty Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra.

But then GM ran out of money. And the company’s bankruptcy killed that engine.

If that wasn’t bad enough for GM, the Ram 1500 likely would not own the fuel economy crown today -- at 28 mpg highway -- were it not for General Motors.

In 2006, GM announced that it was developing a 3.0-liter twin turbo diesel V-6 that would be launched in 2009 in the European version of the Cadllac CTS. But Cadillac failed in Europe, and the bankruptcy saw GM’s engine partner, VM Motori, finish that engine. Fiat now owns VM Motori, and that’s how, in effect, the Cadillac V-6 ended up under the hood of the Ram.

The success of the Ram 1500 EcoDiesel has Ford scrambling to boost the fuel economy of the upcoming aluminum-bodied F-150 coming late this year. Last week, details emerged in Ford’s dealer order guide for the truck showing there will be an SFE of Super Fuel Economy version of the F-150.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2014080 ... 9274467E4R
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by Rope-Pusher » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:24 am

GM to stop omitting truck-part weights to maximize payload ratings

“As this story unfolded, we took a look at how the whole industry does this, and almost everybody uses base curb weight,” GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said. “We thought the best thing to do was line up with the rest of the industry to make those comparisons as easy as possible for consumers.”

For the 2015 Chevrolet Colorado and Silverado 1500 and the GMC Canyon and Sierra 1500, which go into production in the fourth quarter, GM will use “maximum payloads based on base curb weights” in its advertising, catalogs and media materials.

GM also will update already-published specifications for its 2015 heavy-duty pickups to show payload ratings based on their base curb weights. The trucks were launched in January.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2014080 ... 9274467E4R
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by Rope-Pusher » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:11 pm

I'll see your bet,...and raise you 5

On Friday, Ford claimed best in class power for its 2015 diesel-powered Super Duty pickup with 860 pounds-feet of torque.

But Chrysler today announced that it will offer a 2015 diesel-powered Ram Heavy Duty pickup with 865 pounds-feet of torque -- a bump of 15 pounds-feet over the outgoing 2014 model and 5 pounds-feet more than Ford’s truck.

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http://www.autonews.com/article/2014082 ... 9274467E4R
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by Rope-Pusher » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:09 pm

Ford abandons practice of removing items to boost heavy-duty pickup payload ratings
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Ford Motor Co. said it will abandon its practice of stripping removable items from its heavy-duty pickups to boost their payload ratings and will join competitors in using base curb weights.

The automaker also said today that it will state the maximum towing rating for the 2015 F-450 using the industry’s SAE J2807 towing standard.

That’s a change from Ford’s previous practice of using its own tests to determine the heavy-duty pickup’s maximum towing rating.
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Re: Tow Missiles?

Post by Rope-Pusher » Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:48 pm

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news ... yload.html
Colorado and Canyon Will Lead Midsize Pickup Segment in Four-Cylinder Fuel Economy and Payload

Engine Trans. Drive EPA Fuel Economy Estimates
City Highway Combined
200-hp 2.5L I-4 with direct fuel injection and continuously variable valve timing
6-speed automatic 2WD 20 27 22
4×4 19 25 21
6-speed manual 2WD 19 26 22
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