Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by Rope-Pusher »

They had an advantage when they had a separate lever just for Park. The force required to shift out of Park, when parked on a slope with the vehicle loaded at GCW (Gross Combined Weight - that's Gross Vehicle Weight + the weight of an International Harvester combine being towed behind it.) can be quite high, but the lever rotation is not a very large angle, so you trade a small amount of trans Park lever motion for a larger amount of shifter Park lever motion and the force at the shifter Park lever comes down to something more manageable.
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by ClutchFork »

Rope-Pusher wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:18 am They had an advantage when they had a separate lever just for Park. The force required to shift out of Park, when parked on a slope with the vehicle loaded at GCW (Gross Combined Weight - that's Gross Vehicle Weight + the weight of an International Harvester combine being towed behind it.) can be quite high, but the lever rotation is not a very large angle, so you trade a small amount of trans Park lever motion for a larger amount of shifter Park lever motion and the force at the shifter Park lever comes down to something more manageable.
But everyone who is familiar with driving manual transmissions has sense enough to set the parking brake in an automatic when on much of a slope "before" putting it in park or before letting off the brake after putting it in park.

Now for a funny story. I once had a 1971 Ford 4-door Custom stripper left over from a fleet order. It looked exactly but for the color (mine was puke green/yellow) like the local taxi cabs. It had a 302 V8 and a 3-speed automatic transmission. Now the funny part. I once pulled into a corner cafe to pick up an order and in my hurry threw it in park while still moving 10 or 15 mph. It made a sound like a ratchet, but very loudly, and then when the parking pawl finally went into its slot the car lurched to a stop with a front-back swaying motion. The ratchet sound was so loud that everyone in the cafe turned their heads and were staring out the window at the idiot who didn't know how to drive. My dad always warned me that the pawl was easy to break off, but I guess I proved him wrong in that case.
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by theholycow »

ClutchFork wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:43 pm When it comes to automatic transmisisons, the least obtrusive selector the better. Since the selector does not actively function to drive the car, why have a big nasty lever sticking up between the seats (unless one wants to think they are cool, when at best they are a poser). No, Chrysler had it right. My first car was a 64 Dodge Dart with an automatic and the selector looked like this and was nicely out of the way. That lever to the left of the buttons was to put the transmission in park.
[img]http://valiant50.co.za/joomla/images/me ... 90.jpg[img]


Why waste all this space between the seats for a silly giant lever that is only to select a mode? The size of that lever suggests you need a lot of leverage to move it. Ha. How silly consumer preferences are.
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I agree with you 1000% about the now-common obtrusive console/floor range selector lever taking up much-needed space, but the desired example you provided has a major issue (which is becoming a common issue now with newfangled stuff too anyway): It's not common or standardized, so in a panicked emergency you can't expect a driver to successfully operate it. This issue became abundantly clear to me during the whole Toyota floor mat accelerator pedal news era, when people operating uncommon/unfamiliar interfaces failed to shift to neutral, failed to kill the engine, etc. As such, IMO the only reasonable automatic transmission range selector interface is the column shifter. Almost everyone knows how to operate it as second-nature, rather than needing to have any remotely conscious thoughts about it.

It also has one other issue, relating to utility during emergency situations: Using buttons means a more complex system, where a more simple well-proven system is known to work well. The typical 1960s-2000s automatic range selector (regardless of its location and style) has a cable or rod linkage that directly operates some physical mechanical parts of the transmission (specifically Neutral and Park), as well as often directly mechanically operating some hydraulic valves in addition to its electronic switch.
ClutchFork wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:02 amBut everyone who is familiar with driving manual transmissions has sense enough to set the parking brake in an automatic when on much of a slope "before" putting it in park or before letting off the brake after putting it in park.

Now for a funny story. I once had a 1971 Ford 4-door Custom stripper left over from a fleet order. It looked exactly but for the color (mine was puke green/yellow) like the local taxi cabs. It had a 302 V8 and a 3-speed automatic transmission. Now the funny part. I once pulled into a corner cafe to pick up an order and in my hurry threw it in park while still moving 10 or 15 mph. It made a sound like a ratchet, but very loudly, and then when the parking pawl finally went into its slot the car lurched to a stop with a front-back swaying motion. The ratchet sound was so loud that everyone in the cafe turned their heads and were staring out the window at the idiot who didn't know how to drive. My dad always warned me that the pawl was easy to break off, but I guess I proved him wrong in that case.
Parking brake? What vehicle comes with a decent parking brake anymore? Half of them don't hold well from the factory, most of the rest stop holding well and need everything (lever, cables, connectors, fasteners, clips, plus the entire drum-in-hat shoe system inside of many rear disc brakes) replaced every year and tediously adjusted every 6 months to hold well, and now on top of that there are ones that gratuitously disconnect the driver by being operated electronically.

I know the at-speed Park engagement ratchet/lurch well...I've nursed plenty of failed brake lines to a stop (mostly in my yard truck). Haven't broken a park pawl yet!
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by IMBoring25 »

Ergonomics is apparently a dead science. You should be able to tell by feel what gear you have selected and there should be no danger of confusion with other controls. None of the new and improved interfaces accomplish those and the rotary knob style that's becoming so ubiquitous is a complete disaster. This literally killed Anton Yelchin.

There was nothing wrong with the column but it wasn't sporty enough. Now we have to solve the space-efficiency issue caused by the floor-shift movement and the solutions are worse than the problem.
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

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IMBoring25 wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:39 pm There was nothing wrong with the column but it wasn't sporty enough. Now we have to solve the space-efficiency issue caused by the floor-shift movement and the solutions are worse than the problem.
Why do they need sporty in a utility vehicle. It is just a living room easy chair on wheels with climate control in a box. It's the masses desire for sporty, to be seen and admired, that makes it so easy for companies to sell so much useless crap to the public.

If you really want sporty then get something that is inherently sporty.

Oh, and here I can go on again about parking brakes:

Never, NEVER, NEVER EVER get out of the car with the engine running unless the parking brake is firmly applied (and ideally the selector in park if an auto). If Yelchin had that habit, he would still be with us.

Accidents do happen and usually are not so accidental as they are carelessness.
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by Rope-Pusher »

IMBoring25 wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:39 pm Ergonomics is apparently a dead science. You should be able to tell by feel what gear you have selected and there should be no danger of confusion with other controls. None of the new and improved interfaces accomplish those and the rotary knob style that's becoming so ubiquitous is a complete disaster. This literally killed Anton Yelchin.

There was nothing wrong with the column but it wasn't sporty enough. Now we have to solve the space-efficiency issue caused by the floor-shift movement and the solutions are worse than the problem.
Actually, Yelchin's Grand Cherokee had the infamous "Mono-stable" shifter that, not unlike a gaming joystick, returned to the center position after each-n-every shift motion. Shirley, you could not tell what gear position you had selected by the attitude of the shifter.
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

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Now here is a simple, space saving selector that should work quite well, but don't tell me that button below it with the P is the parking brake! Really need a lever or pedal for the parking brake not some pushbutton. I want direct cable actuation of the parking brake, and you can feel it. Won't feel that switch and so won't know if the parking brake is really set.
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by IMBoring25 »

That's the rotary knob style I just railed against. Zero chance of telling what gear you're in without looking at the lights and not just one but two other rotary knobs in the area. Since it's up higher and differently sized from the potentially confusing controls, it's not as bad as the 200, with the knob down on the console and mere inches from a fan speed control that was virtually an interchangeable part.

First I remember hearing about an electronic parking brake was the 2003 Lincoln LS. Didn't like it then, don't like it now. I like my redundant safety systems as independent as I can get them.
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

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IMBoring25 wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:10 am That's the rotary knob style I just railed against. Zero chance of telling what gear you're in without looking at the lights and not just one but two other rotary knobs in the area. Since it's up higher and differently sized from the potentially confusing controls, it's not as bad as the 200, with the knob down on the console and mere inches from a fan speed control that was virtually an interchangeable part.

First I remember hearing about an electronic parking brake was the 2003 Lincoln LS. Didn't like it then, don't like it now. I like my redundant safety systems as independent as I can get them.
You are right, that knob is too close to the other stuff. A person might spin it into park trying to turn the radio down. Yeah, better stick with a small lever on the column. Better yet, ban automatic transmissions!
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by watkins »

ClutchFork wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:27 pm Never, NEVER, NEVER EVER get out of the car with the engine running unless the parking brake is firmly applied (and ideally the selector in park if an auto).
Yeah, no. You try doing my job and following that procedure. Literally impossible for so many reasons.
ClutchFork wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:03 am I want direct cable actuation of the parking brake, and you can feel it. Won't feel that switch and so won't know if the parking brake is really set.
You most certainly do feel it in the brake pedal as it sets. And you hear it. On top of that, its far more reliable than a cable parking brake since it is self-adjusting and applies far more pressure.



As for rotary shifters: They aren't a problem if you're at all competent and focusing on operating a vehicle as you should be. If someone can't handle it, chances are good they shouldn't be driving anyway. The only issues with rotary shifters are placement and tactile feedback. They work best if isolated from other controls and when they are clearly a different feel than other knobs. Since they're electric, they don't allow for stupidity shifts, which does help as well. The car won't attempt to shift in to reverse when it knows it's already moving forward too fast for it to be safe.

They're also far superior to column mounted shifters. Ive never once experienced a column shifter with decent feedback. Most are sloppy and easily let you end up between gears.
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by tankinbeans »

The notaries are a meh Burger with decent detents, but no real merits or demerits. Not sure about other systems but Ford's return to parknis an interesting gimmick.

I'm curious from a functional perspective how the electronic whirr parking brakes work. Do they use the ABS modulator to apply the service brakes? I know my pedal drops slight when I apply the whirr parking brake.
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by watkins »

The Mopar system uses an electric motor in each rear caliper to compress it. It places far less strain on the rest of the braking system and because it is two separate motors it offers a redundancy if one were to fail.

Im not sure about other manufacturers.
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by potownrob »

und of coarse the values und prizes wont go down on the honduhs, even the wons whiff the bad injens; doze honduh ownerz und bye errs will keep pay ying wut ever the dealers say the prize is. eye sea dem at the dealer, whiff dare brainz ahl mush she wading fur dare over prized carrs.
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
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Re: Seams Tummy Eye Dew Recall.....

Post by theholycow »

ClutchFork wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:48 amYou are right, that knob is too close to the other stuff. A person might spin it into park trying to turn the radio down. Yeah, better stick with a small lever on the column. Better yet, ban automatic transmissions!
People DO spin it when trying to adjust the radio or heat. It's a damned mess.

My sister has the same Grand Cherokee interface that killed Yelchin. Damnfool thing is annoying to say the least...
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