Lead Cudda Been a Contender

[Rope-Pusher]

From Autoline Daily:

LEAD-ACID MAKING A COMEBACK
A company called Energy Power Systems located in Troy, Michigan says the lead-acid battery is going to make a comeback. It has developed a new type of lead-acid battery that is a fraction of the cost of a lithium-ion battery but is still capable of producing the power needed for most hybrid applications. The new battery changes the size and shape of the lead plates as well as the thickness of the electrodes and how it’s assembled. The company says its new design will be about half the cost of a lithium-ion pack and only add 4 to 5 pounds in a mild hybrid application.

http://wardsauto.com/suppliers/lead-aci ... econd-look

[ra64t]

my investments in the lithium industry haven't paid off...

[IMBoring25]

So it's about 30% heavier than a lithium battery of the same capacity instead of a standard lead acid at around 100%?

[ra64t]

I guess it also potentially is more stable and doesn't require a battery management system.

[Squint]

Without reading that article (at work, silly internet controls), isn't lead-acid a more dangerous type of battery?

[Rope-Pusher]

Besides copper and zinc stuck into a lemon, most batteries are made out of nasty stuff.

It will be interesting if the new tech applied to lead/acid batteries gets in the whey of recycling the lead.

[IMBoring25]

Concur that most batteries with a useful capacity are nasty in one or more ways. Sounds like you may not have heard of the spontaneous combustion of the various lithium-ion laptop batteries, not too mention the question of whether there's fire where there's smoke with respect to the various lithium EV spontaneous combustions.

[Squint]

Concur that most batteries with a useful capacity are nasty in one or more ways. Sounds like you may not have heard of the spontaneous combustion of the various lithium-ion laptop batteries, not too mention the question of whether there's fire where there's smoke with respect to the various lithium EV spontaneous combustions.

I have: had a battery pack expand very quickly on laptop I had in the past. Didn't explode, luckily, but did expand quickly. I was just curious about the safety of different types of batteries.

[Rope-Pusher]

Concur that most batteries with a useful capacity are nasty in one or more ways. Sounds like you may not have heard of the spontaneous combustion of the various lithium-ion laptop batteries, not too mention the question of whether there's fire where there's smoke with respect to the various lithium EV spontaneous combustions.

I have: had a battery pack expand very quickly on laptop I had in the past. Didn't explode, luckily, but did expand quickly. I was just curious about the safety of different types of batteries.

One Word: THERMALMANGLEMENT
From summers N the mittle F the article:

"Dhar envisions minimal additional battery-pack weight from the use of lead, because less-volatile lead-acid doesn’t require the same thermal-management support as more advanced chemistries.

A Prius NiMH pack is about 70% batteries and 30% thermal management and electronics, he says. The equivalent EPS pack would take up less room because it is 90% batteries, 10% air circulation and electronics, Dhar says, and would be one-third the cost.

An application in a mild hybrid such as General Motors’ e-Assist powertrain would add just 4.4 lbs. (2 kg), he adds, and be less than half the cost of the Li-ion pack the auto maker uses."

[Squint]

"Dhar envisions minimal additional battery-pack weight from the use of lead, because less-volatile lead-acid doesn’t require the same thermal-management support as more advanced chemistries.

A Prius NiMH pack is about 70% batteries and 30% thermal management and electronics, he says. The equivalent EPS pack would take up less room because it is 90% batteries, 10% air circulation and electronics, Dhar says, and would be one-third the cost.

An application in a mild hybrid such as General Motors’ e-Assist powertrain would add just 4.4 lbs. (2 kg), he adds, and be less than half the cost of the Li-ion pack the auto maker uses."

So what about vehicles like a Toyota Prius/Ford Fusion/etc that are considered Full Hybrids? I wonder what the difference in weight would be there.

[Rope-Pusher]

^There are all sorts of hybrids, but adding a big battery pack to extend the range while driving with the ICE not running is a recipe for high cost and weight. You don't need a huge battery to recover braking energy, or to add a boost of power to augment a small ICE - the two greatest contributions to reducing the vehicle fuel mileage that a hybrid system can offer. Some hybrid vehicles are severely limited in how much braking energy they can recover by their battery's thermal management system. If the Plumbum/Low Ph electrolyte battery has a high capacity for energy flow in both directions, charging and discharging, it could be the perfect battery type for a cost-effective hybrid vehicle system.

[Squint]

Good to know. I'd rather have a hybrid that does small boost/auto stop & start/regenerative braking that one that drives mostly electric with combustion engine kicking in rarely. I like better fuel economy, but I don't like being handicapped at the expense of having to wait for a vehicle to charge or anything.

[IMBoring25]

So what about vehicles like a Toyota Prius/Ford Fusion/etc that are considered Full Hybrids? I wonder what the difference in weight would be there.

We have to make some assumptions, but we can extrapolate (guess).

4.4 pounds in a mild hybrid, if we assume they mean something like a Malibu Eco with a 0.5 kWh battery pack, is approximately 9 additional pounds per kWh. Using that value, the weight penalty for this technology vs. a lithium pack (yes, I know the Prius runs NiMH) would be as follows:

Hybrids:
Prius/Fusion Hybrid: 1.4 kWh, 13 extra pounds.
Prius Plug-In: 4.4 kWh, 40 extra pounds.

Range-Boosted EV:
Volt: 16.4 kWh, 150 extra pounds.

EV:
Leaf/Focus Electric: 24 kWh, 216 extra pounds.
Tesla Model S, Standard Battery: 40 kWh, 360 extra pounds.
Tesla Model S, Top Battery Option: 85 kWh, 765 extra pounds.

Good to know. I'd rather have a hybrid that does small boost/auto stop & start/regenerative braking that one that drives mostly electric with combustion engine kicking in rarely. I like better fuel economy, but I don't like being handicapped at the expense of having to wait for a vehicle to charge or anything.

You're only completely at the mercy of charging stations with a full EV. Mild hybrids, full hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and range-boosted EVs will all run happily with a depleted battery as long as there's gas in the tank (albeit with impaired performance and worsened fuel economy because full advantage can not be taken of the hybrid system).

[Squint]

You're only completely at the mercy of charging stations with a full EV. Mild hybrids, full hybrids, plug-in hybrids, and range-boosted EVs will all run happily with a depleted battery as long as there's gas in the tank (albeit with impaired performance and worsened fuel economy because full advantage can not be taken of the hybrid system).

There are some vehicles that get significantly worse economy once battery is down. Volt's ICE only does low 30s mpg after battery is down, unless memory is broken. Just being nitpicky, but yes, I'm not really a fan of full EVs without significant changes.

[IMBoring25]

Volt is a niche product conceived as an EV. It is operating far off design once the battery is depleted, basically a Cruze Eco lugging around about 500 pounds of electric drive hardware and going through extra energy conversions in the process (from mechanical through electrical and ultimately back to mechanical).

The Volt really only starts to make sense for someone who puts most of their mileage on in increments of 35 miles or less between recharging opportunities but also takes longer trips outside the range of a comparably-priced full EV frequently enough to render rental of road-tripping cars inconvenient but not so often as to warrant owning a second vehicle for the purpose.