Stability Control

[watkins]

That is to say that the driver is damn dangerous for not knowing how to manually control their car.

Well, on that I am happy to agree, as long as we understand that whether the driver is skillful or not, he is still better off with ESP than without it. In summary, the roads would be a lot safer if people knew how to control their cars (and drive defensively) and had ESP on their cars.

A+, gold star, all that jazz. People need to learn to drive before they learn to rely on artificial driving.

Except maybe that self parking thing. Too many people just cant parallel park, no matter how hard they try.

[GarySheehan]

My point is this: Electronics can cut out without warning. If ESP cuts out during an emergency maneuver, the average driver who just cares about A to B would not know how to control their unaided car. Thats pretty damn dangerous.

I'm sorry, but this is truly an idiotic argument. The odds of a system failure during an incident is so minuscule as to be negligible.

For the majority of people on American roads today, I am sure that they couldnt care less about know their cars because they feel like ESP and ABS and whatever else will keep them safe. That is plainly not the case.

That is TRULY not the case. In fact, it's ridiculous. The VAST majority of drivers have no idea what traction control, stability control or abs does or if there car even has one or all of these systems. How can they be relying on these systems if they are not even AWARE of these systems. The vast majority of drivers have never even activated ABS. You make it sound like the majority is activating these system willy-nilly.

As you mentioned, electronics are supposed to be in addition to human knowledge. My experience is that people think they are a replacement for actual driving skills.

You're experience? From your photo I would guess your age to be 19 or 20 years old. You have very little experience.

The fact is that the driving skills are what they are out there. People are not actively avoiding improving themselves! They pass the test, get their license and drive around, completely uninterested in the mechanics of their vehicle or the physics involved. That's it. These systems are necessary, as are seatbelts, to enhance public safety. Period.

Before I say anything else, answer this question...If you feel that you are capable enough a driver to think that you may never be put in a situation where you may need these systems, why do you wear a seatbelt?

[six]

Because "Click-It-Or-Ticket. It's the Law."


Sorry, trying to be funny. Probably isn't working, isn't it.

[Prodigal Son]

I'm sure most of you are too young to remember the debate about mandatory seat belts. People said the most ridiculous things.

It's better to be thrown free. (Yeah, through the windshield.)

I can brace myself. (They actually built sleds to simulate 10 mph crashes and set them up at shopping malls to convince people that they could not brace themselves.)

What if there's a fire? I need to be able to get out. (Yeah, it helps if you are conscious first.)

What if the car goes under water? (Because most crashes involve the total immersion of the vehicle.)

It really was hilarious to see how much of a fight people put up about it and how idiotic their excuses were.

[watkins]

My point is this: Electronics can cut out without warning. If ESP cuts out during an emergency maneuver, the average driver who just cares about A to B would not know how to control their unaided car. Thats pretty damn dangerous.

I'm sorry, but this is truly an idiotic argument. The odds of a system failure during an incident is so minuscule as to be negligible.

Did I say it was likely? No. Is it possible? Yes. Therefore it is not idiotic.

For the majority of people on American roads today, I am sure that they couldnt care less about know their cars because they feel like ESP and ABS and whatever else will keep them safe. That is plainly not the case.

That is TRULY not the case. In fact, it's ridiculous. The VAST majority of drivers have no idea what traction control, stability control or abs does or if there car even has one or all of these systems. How can they be relying on these systems if they are not even AWARE of these systems. The vast majority of drivers have never even activated ABS. You make it sound like the majority is activating these system willy-nilly.

These features are a selling point of cars in most dealerships Ive been to. Considering my parents get new cars every few years, and they always shop around and I usually go with them, Ive been to quite a few. Three different Nissan, two Subaru, two Lexus, an Acura, a Mazda, two BMW, two Saab, a Ford, a Lincoln/Mercury, and an Infinity. Even top end dealers, such as Lamborghini Boston, make note of the features. Im sure people know they exist. They may not know the exact workings, but when something has "stability" or "traction" in its name, they get the gist.
Edit: Youve driven in MA and Boston, have you not? You should know all about how often ABS is used.

As you mentioned, electronics are supposed to be in addition to human knowledge. My experience is that people think they are a replacement for actual driving skills.

You're experience? From your photo I would guess your age to be 19 or 20 years old. You have very little experience.

Though I may only be 19, I have driven with a large enough sampling, and have drive as a driver or passenger for many hundreds of thousands of miles. Since well before I could legally drive I watched others and observed driving habits. So no, I dont have as much seat time as you, but I do have experience in other ways, and I have observed that many many people think they are invincible on the road.

They pass the test, get their license and drive around, completely uninterested in the mechanics of their vehicle or the physics involved.

Thats the point. They just dont care, which is what makes them dangerous.

Before I say anything else, answer this question...If you feel that you are capable enough a driver to think that you may never be put in a situation where you may need these systems, why do you wear a seatbelt?

I never said I may never be put in that situation. If I were, It would probably come from something outside of my control, like an idiot driver who doesnt know that their SUV doesnt automatically make them the best person on the road. Nor did I say I wear my seatbelt, though I do since my parents raised me to. I have a feeling however, that if I were to be in a situation where I would really desperately need electronic help, it would be bad enough that Id probably end up in a bad way with or without it.

[Prodigal Son]

I have a feeling however, that if I were to be in a situation where I would really desperately need electronic help, it would be bad enough that Id probably end up in a bad way with or without it.

Was it not you who said the the worst arguers are those who let their emotions distort their positions. People chronically overestimate their abilities. Your feelings are misleading you. Leave your feelings out of it for a moment and look at the physics and the statistics.

[hockeystyx16]

[Leedeth]

LMAO, didn't AHTOXA post that a while ago?

[blauenlanze]

studies in Europe show that ABS and TCS and whateverS helps because people over there know how to drive, and they understand what cars can and cant do. they understand they cant take a righthand turn in the curb lane going 50, and if they try, no electronics will help them

here in America, most people have no concept of cars limits, of what they can do. they dont know that planting the gas on snow will just make you spin tires. they dont know that planting the brake on snow will make you slide and be out of control. they dont know how to modulate controls. stuff like that.

over here, people simply dont know how to drive. if you dont know how to drive, no amount of electronics will cover that up. relying on electronics to save the driver because that driver is an idiot and has no clue of physics being applied to the car, thats putting a band aid on the problem. it covers it, but it doesnt fix it.

I think you need to stop dissing American drivers so much. Our fatality rates are right in the middle of the pack for Europe. C'mon.

And that study about ABS making taxi drivers drive more aggressively to make up for their lower level of risk (with ABS) was from Europe, if I remember correctly.

In Sweden, there was a time when they switched from drivingon the left to driving on the right. For a while, people were more cautious, but after a year or so, the accident rates returned to 'normal'.

[watkins]

I have a feeling however, that if I were to be in a situation where I would really desperately need electronic help, it would be bad enough that Id probably end up in a bad way with or without it.

Was it not you who said the the worst arguers are those who let their emotions distort their positions. People chronically overestimate their abilities. Your feelings are misleading you. Leave your feelings out of it for a moment and look at the physics and the statistics.

I tend to have pretty accurate gut instincts, be that a blessing or a curse. Good thing it wasnt the point of any arguement. If Im screwed, Im screwed. Looking at the statistics though, I know the chances of being in such a threatening situation arent too high, so Im content to let my driving life take its course. If something terrible happens, Ill do my best to avoid catastrophy, whether its with stability control or without. Until that unlikely point, Ill continue to learn more about my car and how to keep it under control as well as my own limits, no matter what Im driving.

[Errto]

I think you need to stop dissing American drivers so much. Our fatality rates are right in the middle of the pack for Europe. C'mon.

IIRC this is largely attributable to tougher crash safety standards here, whereas the technologies we're talking about in this thread are more about crash avoidance.

But yes, the differences are often exaggerated. I haven't spent a huge amount of time in Europe but I've seen that while drivers there are unquestionably better skilled on average, they also have much more of a tendency to perform riskier maneuvers (illegal lane changes, passing with too little clearance etc). Who comes out ahead? I haven't checked the numbers...

[watkins]

...they also have much more of a tendency to perform riskier maneuvers (illegal lane changes, passing with too little clearance etc). Who comes out ahead? I haven't checked the numbers...

Which is why Europe's worst drivers themed shows are so amusing.

[StrangeWill]

My point is this: Electronics can cut out without warning. If ESP cuts out during an emergency maneuver, the average driver who just cares about A to B would not know how to control their unaided car. Thats pretty damn dangerous. For the majority of people on American roads today, I am sure that they couldnt care less about know their cars because they feel like ESP and ABS and whatever else will keep them safe. That is plainly not the case. As you mentioned, electronics are supposed to be in addition to human knowledge. My experience is that people think they are a replacement for actual driving skills.

I dunno why people always have this fear of electronics just suddenly stop working, your heart is more likely to just STOP beating, especially considering stuff like fuel, throttle, and steering are electronic dependent on a lot of vehicles, and ALL modern airplanes. The chances of the electricity suddenly disobeying the laws of physics and stopping for no damn reason the moment you go into a skid is like a trillion to one. Where as the chances of some dumbshit sliding sideways into your car is much greater.

People need to put things into perspective and stop stretching the truth to a huge fat lie.

And eventually computers WILL replace humans, they're way more dependable, they just need the physical processing power and good enough programming to evaluate the situations you'd encounter on the road (which they probably have the power now... considering a 386 keeps the B-52 in the air and bombing the shit out of everything, just someone has yet to write software to evaluate enough circumstances). Also a big woot as insurance companies become practically useless, and efficiency rates skyrocket along with speed limits, no sign clutter, no traffic lights, etc.

[DocPHD]

And eventually computers WILL replace humans, they're way more dependable, they just need the physical processing power and good enough programming to evaluate the situations you'd encounter on the road (which they probably have the power now... considering a 386 keeps the B-52 in the air and bombing the quit out of everything, just someone has yet to write software to evaluate enough circumstances). Also a big woot as insurance companies become practically useless, and efficiency rates skyrocket along with speed limits, no sign clutter, no traffic lights, etc.

and i'll still be driving manual, only by that time it will be in a helluva beefed up ride.

[comingbackdown]

I interpret your statement that these things are not NEEDED on all cars the same way as if I heard someone say 3-point seatbelts are not needed on all cars.

They're not needed on all cars. There's the ones in the junkyard, the ones on blocks in somebody's front yard, the ones that have been in granny's garage for years since she don't drive no more, etc.

You don't need any restraints at all if you're driving down a road in the middle of nowhere at 10 mph with nothing and nobody around. In a completely optimal situation, you don't need safety features.

EDIT:
Now, here's an interesting tidbit of information that popped into my head...

It's not that the drivers have a safety placebo from these systems (other than ABS. I see that a lot. Bigtime... "My car has ABS. It doesn't matter if I slam on the brakes in four inches of snow. ABS will save me." Hear it too often...) it's that they don't know what they do, or how they work, or in many cases, if they even have them. Also, there are so many people... Let's say there's a light to tell you if something goes wrong with the ESP or the TCS or something, just like an ABS warning light... So many people will just ignore the light until they get annoyed by it...

It's frightening... It's the classic "Eh, I don't know what that light does, but it's fine", or "Yeah, I know the oil light is on. It'll do five more miles. *CLUNK, CLATTER, BANG CLATTER BOOM!* oh sh!t." If somebody does that, and the system isn't active, it won't matter if they have it or not if there's an emergency, since it won't work.