Exactly. Which is why they arent essential, wonderful lifesavers though they may be. The sad thing is that people just dont seem to have the skills or attentiveness to avoid using the systems. Hell, Ive even seen cops shaving while patroling.GarySheehan wrote:A skilled and attentive driver will have these systems intervene significantly fewer times than an unskilled or inattentive driver. Just like seatbelts.
Stability Control
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Thats a general statement as I phrased it. And its one you know to be true I bet. It has been said that the worst arguers are those who let their emotions distort their positions.VTECaddict wrote:so, like....you sort of just 'personally attacked' Prodigal Son, didnt you?watkins wrote:Personal attacks make the attacker look like an insecure piece of quit who cant be bothered to make logical statements in a discussion or arguement.
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ok, so electronic aids arent "100%". what is worse, an average driver in an emergency situation with an electronic aid that has a failure rate of 0.1% (arbitrary number, but they are pretty reliable), or an average driver in an emergency situation with no electronic aid?watkins wrote:My point is this: Electronics can cut out without warning. If ESP cuts out during an emergency maneuver, the average driver who just cares about A to B would not know how to control their unaided car. Thats pretty damn dangerous. For the majority of people on American roads today, I am sure that they couldnt care less about know their cars because they feel like ESP and ABS and whatever else will keep them safe. That is plainly not the case. As you mentioned, electronics are supposed to be in addition to human knowledge. My experience is that people think they are a replacement for actual driving skills.
its a moot point if it cuts out during or before a situation because you just revert back to square one, which is not having the aid in the first place. the outcome would be the same in such a situation if they had a failed electronic aid or no electronic aid.
if its raining outside, do you use an umbrella with the possibility that it breaks on you when you open it, or do you just walk around without one and get soaking wet?
i agree that most people see them as a replacement for driving skill though. theres no substitution for that, but i definitely wouldnt object to having stability control to save my ass should i ever encounter a situation where my driving skills arent sufficient.
Last edited by VTECaddict on Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2006 BMW 330i 6MT
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Any system on the car can fail without warning. That is not a reason not to have the system. By that line of argument tires are dangerous because they can puncture. Better not to have tires. Your argument is on par with the people who used to argue that seatbelts are dangerous and who claimed it was better to be thrown from the car.watkins wrote: My point is this: Electronics can cut out without warning.
Electronic systems are tested every time you start the car. Mechanical systems are not. The failure of an electronic system is therefore far more likely to be reported to the driver before that system fails on the road.
The actual facts (the ones produced by well conducted studies, not the made up kind) are that ESP systems are reliable and they save lives.
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Good for you. Now if you would be so kind as to point out what you see as idiocy, I would be quite appreciative. There is a difference between someone being an idiot and having an oppinion different from your own.Prodigal Son wrote:I know.watkins wrote:Now tell me, where exactly is the idiocy in this conversation? I see none.
From dictionary.com:
idiocy: utterly senseless or foolish behavior; a stupid or foolish act, statement, etc.
Foolish, no. Different from your thoughts, yes. It would however be foolish if I were to think that electronic aids are bad and end up killing people. That is simply not true. You must see however that none of it is really that important. A car does not instantly become a death trap without any of it, just like a car with the technology is not invincible.
If I could spell it out better for you I would. I am in favor of ABS, ESP, TC, whathaveyou. I do not find it essential. That is all Im saying. I have reasoning behind my beliefs. I can understand your point of view, but I have my own.
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As was the statement of mine to which you objected. You were the one who chose to take it personally.watkins wrote: Thats a general statement as I phrased it.
A point on which we can agree.watkins wrote:It has been said that the worst arguers are those who let their emotions distort their positions.
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Theres no doubt in my mind that having an aid system is better. I was just playing the devil's advocate, though that was just to point out that:VTECaddict wrote:ok, so electronic aids arent "100%". what is worse, an average driver in an emergency situation with an electronic aid that has a failure rate of 0.1% (arbitrary number, but they are pretty reliable), or an average driver in an emergency situation with no electronic aid?watkins wrote:My point is this: Electronics can cut out without warning. If ESP cuts out during an emergency maneuver, the average driver who just cares about A to B would not know how to control their unaided car. Thats pretty damn dangerous. For the majority of people on American roads today, I am sure that they couldnt care less about know their cars because they feel like ESP and ABS and whatever else will keep them safe. That is plainly not the case. As you mentioned, electronics are supposed to be in addition to human knowledge. My experience is that people think they are a replacement for actual driving skills.
The end of your statement also applies to me. On average I dont need it. Nor, I bet, do most of the rest of us on here, being driving enthusiasts who care to learn to drive well. In the one in a million situation when I really really need it, I wouldnt say no to having electronic intervention.VTECaddict wrote:... most people see them as a replacement for driving skill though. theres no substitution for that, but i definitely wouldnt object to having stability control to save my ass should i ever encounter a situation where my driving skills arent sufficient.
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watkins wrote:Now if you would be so kind as to point out what you see as idiocy, I would be quite appreciative.
and yetwatkins wrote:I am in favor of ABS, ESP, TC, whathaveyou. I do not find it essential. That is all Im saying.
watkins wrote:If ESP cuts out during an emergency maneuver, the average driver who just cares about A to B would not know how to control their unaided car. Thats pretty damn dangerous.
Would you? As I understand your statements to date, your view seems to be that ESP is a) damn dangerous, and b)something you are in favor of.watkins wrote:If I could spell it out better for you I would.
Forgive me if I'm a little confused.
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That is to say that the driver is damn dangerous for not knowing how to manually control their car.Prodigal Son wrote:watkins wrote:If ESP cuts out during an emergency maneuver, the average driver who just cares about A to B would not know how to control their unaided car. Thats pretty damn dangerous.Would you? As I understand your statements to date, your view seems to be that ESP is a) damn dangerous, and b)something you are in favor of.watkins wrote:If I could spell it out better for you I would.
Forgive me if I'm a little confused.
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Well, on that I am happy to agree, as long as we understand that whether the driver is skillful or not, he is still better off with ESP than without it. In summary, the roads would be a lot safer if people knew how to control their cars (and drive defensively) and had ESP on their cars.watkins wrote:That is to say that the driver is damn dangerous for not knowing how to manually control their car.
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