Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

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potownrob
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by potownrob » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:28 am

Teamwork wrote: Potown speaking of "high speed" highways... my friend recently got an ECU tune and was testing the maps late at night on Ocean Parkway during the week. Literally, said he was the only guy out there at like 1 am.. but the "only guy" besides the police sleeping on the dividers.
did he get pulled over?? i can imagine it being quiet there at night; no reason for most people to be on that stretch at night 8)
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:52 pm

potownrob wrote:
Teamwork wrote: Potown speaking of "high speed" highways... my friend recently got an ECU tune and was testing the maps late at night on Ocean Parkway during the week. Literally, said he was the only guy out there at like 1 am.. but the "only guy" besides the police sleeping on the dividers.
did he get pulled over?? i can imagine it being quiet there at night; no reason for most people to be on that stretch at night 8)
Nope, because the cop most likely really was, actually asleep in a running car or reading the paper. Wantagh and Ocean Parkway late at night is pretty much the beginner driver parkway. Also, the route of the Gilgo beach killer for dumping bodies...

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by theholycow » Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:11 pm

Teamwork wrote:Also, I kind of slipped 2nd on a resuming traffic scenario today by either luck, will, or the grace of a higher power. It was mostly an accident but it worked out pretty good. I just want to get checked that what I'm doing is fine... I was really on that thresh hold 7-8 mph and the car in front of me starting going, braked lightly (didn't full stop), and continued moving (FML) and I already committed in my mind 2nd by the time he braked/starting moving nearly instantly I basically started feathering out the clutch in 2nd gear- I know for a fact my digital read out said 7 mph and I lightly gas'ed while in the friction point until I got the speedo back to 10-11 mph before fully lifting off. It honestly felt like I was 1st gear launching but just in 2nd. I didn't hold it there for much longer then when I hold it for 1st gear either and I was kind of concerned but I knew I had to ride it a little or I most likely would've stalled in 2nd gear. I was pretty satisfied when nothing catastrophic happened and no odd symptoms or smells.
Sounds like a textbook rolling 2nd launch to me. Try to do it again next time.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:03 am

theholycow wrote: Sounds like a textbook rolling 2nd launch to me. Try to do it again next time.
I was rolling around locally trying my luck to recreate the magic. With success 4 out of 4 times but it's a little off putting the sound/feel. I'm going to do my best again to describe it to make sure I'm not botching something. The instances I was trying to resume in 2nd at a low speed was when I was really able to pin point and control at stop signs. I did it local and late so if anything bad happened I wouldn't be holding up anyone. I would brake to pretty much a near stop with the speedo reading 6-7 mph with the lever going into 2nd gear and hold the clutch in the friction point while lightly modulating the throttle. As soon as the car got up to 11-12 mph I would fully lift off the clutch. The only thing I noticed is that when I was working into 2nd gear the engine note sounded "gravely". It never stalled- the motions itself were smooth with no jerking and it wasn't pounding (juddering) me in the cabin. Is this as to be expected because if I can increase this thresh hold and become confident in slipping the clutch in 2nd it would definitely be useful in normal traffic conditions. I bounce and hop around going into 1st gear at like 6-7 mph even when I'm trying to be really soft and progressive- easing into the friction point. It's definitely off putting.

Also, I know Cow you asked me pages back what I did in specific instances when I drove automatic. More specifically when I would approach a 90 degree turn without stopping inbetween. I had to drive my father's car tonight (2006 Toyota Matrix 4 speed auto) and I made a conscious effort to evaluate. I would ease on the brakes, coast before that when getting into the correct lane, brake up to the point where I would start physically turning the wheel, and then I would even get back on the gas while turning. I pretty much do the same exact things with the manual operative but I would brake significantly more before even moving the steering wheel and during the last few feet I had so I could get off the brake and blip the throttle while easing into 2nd gear and throttle while turning. In the times I take 3rd gear during a 90 degree turn I usually engage that gear some time during the turn right before I sense I can throttle out. I wouldn't say I'm "out of control" or wild while doing it either but I know a lot of people say get into the right gear before or after it.

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by IMBoring25 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:11 am

If the car is growling at you, you should probably be coming off the clutch just a hair more slowly.

As for the second issue, a 90 degree turn should be starting slowly. If you're going into a gear close to idle the throttle may be superfluous. That said, developing the heel-and-toe skill in a controlled environment could have applications there.

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by potownrob » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:39 am

Teamwork wrote:
potownrob wrote:
Teamwork wrote: Potown speaking of "high speed" highways... my friend recently got an ECU tune and was testing the maps late at night on Ocean Parkway during the week. Literally, said he was the only guy out there at like 1 am.. but the "only guy" besides the police sleeping on the dividers.
did he get pulled over?? i can imagine it being quiet there at night; no reason for most people to be on that stretch at night 8)
Nope, because the cop most likely really was, actually asleep in a running car or reading the paper. Wantagh and Ocean Parkway late at night is pretty much the beginner driver parkway. Also, the route of the Gilgo beach killer for dumping bodies...
:lol: :shock: :lol: :shock: :lol:
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:06 pm

IMBoring25 wrote:If the car is growling at you, you should probably be coming off the clutch just a hair more slowly.

As for the second issue, a 90 degree turn should be starting slowly. If you're going into a gear close to idle the throttle may be superfluous. That said, developing the heel-and-toe skill in a controlled environment could have applications there.
I'm sorry IMBoring I just want to clarify some things. I appreciate your responses as always!
..coming off the clutch just a hair more slowly.
As in ride it in the friction point just a tad longer? It's okay to lightly throttle when being held in the friction point I'm assuming? And this is good for all of the gears too- say if I'm on the thresh hold of 2nd and 3rd at like 16-17 mph I could do the same slipping in 3rd or should I really keep it to gears 1 and 2?
As for the second issue, a 90 degree turn should be starting slowly. If you're going into a gear close to idle the throttle may be superfluous.
Superfluous as in the blip may be as explained in a different scenario in previous posts where I said I wouldn't really blip resuming in a lower gear if traffic moved off? That could help me greatly honestly, because I usually still make a conscious effort to blip up like 200-300 rpm when turning but I don't know if the benefit is negligible or not... mostly because I learned how to be softer and ease into gears without blips when the rpm difference is very small (this is considered small right?). So I'm unsure if I got better at being more precise at blipping or if I'm better with the clutch or both... I'd hope so both :oops:

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork » Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:02 pm

10 Month Update and thoughts:
I'm at a pretty comfortable point in all of this. I even tested myself on that work entrance hill and I just take it step by step double clutching back into 1st gear and slipping it a little to get going up it.

I learned properly how to slip the clutch in 2nd to prevent the juddering while still being in the 8-10 mph range. One thing that I still falter at is judging when to go into 1st and 2nd when resuming a slow speed again such as 7 mph. I say this because my gut and comfort level with this car is to pretty much go back into 1st gear at 6 mph < (or under) and as long as I'm only rolling at like 5 mph max I can get the car to not hop and bop so much. Magically, it seems and feels like if I hit 5-6 mph though and try and re-engage 1st sometimes I hop all over the place still. I don't feel like I'm doing anything differently and almost as soon as I hit that friction point it feels like nothing could be done to prevent it. I'm wondering if the answer is still in clutch control (lack there of on my part) or if I should be using 2nd gear at a wider thresh hold and just slip it longer/more to get myself up to speed.

Related to a degree is I have trouble negotiating 1st or 2nd gear going up drive way aprons. If they are really steep and need to be taken at a certain angle and a fairly slow speed I usually just slow down dramatically to use 1st gear but I'm not quite sure where the thresh hold is. Fairly low car at play and I'd rather not go in aggressively and scrape or bottom out. I think it leads me back to the first scenario.

That's essentially it though. I feel like I'm in a good working order otherwise!

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by potownrob » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:31 pm

Teamwork wrote:10 Month Update and thoughts:
I'm at a pretty comfortable point in all of this. I even tested myself on that work entrance hill and I just take it step by step double clutching back into 1st gear and slipping it a little to get going up it.

I learned properly how to slip the clutch in 2nd to prevent the juddering while still being in the 8-10 mph range. One thing that I still falter at is judging when to go into 1st and 2nd when resuming a slow speed again such as 7 mph. I say this because my gut and comfort level with this car is to pretty much go back into 1st gear at 6 mph < (or under) and as long as I'm only rolling at like 5 mph max I can get the car to not hop and bop so much. Magically, it seems and feels like if I hit 5-6 mph though and try and re-engage 1st sometimes I hop all over the place still. I don't feel like I'm doing anything differently and almost as soon as I hit that friction point it feels like nothing could be done to prevent it. I'm wondering if the answer is still in clutch control (lack there of on my part) or if I should be using 2nd gear at a wider thresh hold and just slip it longer/more to get myself up to speed.

Related to a degree is I have trouble negotiating 1st or 2nd gear going up drive way aprons. If they are really steep and need to be taken at a certain angle and a fairly slow speed I usually just slow down dramatically to use 1st gear but I'm not quite sure where the thresh hold is. Fairly low car at play and I'd rather not go in aggressively and scrape or bottom out. I think it leads me back to the first scenario.

That's essentially it though. I feel like I'm in a good working order otherwise!
Can't be sure of what's going on as I'm not there and don't drive the same car as you, but it definitely sounds like letting the clutch out more slowly through that engagement zone should help. I know Hondas are easier to shift and have mythically forgiving clutches, but I find I can get into either 1st or 2nd at speeds under ~10 mph without any drama when I go slowly through the engagement zone. When I let up the clutch more normally, like I would for a normal up shift, it's not as pretty...

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:17 pm

potownrob wrote: Can't be sure of what's going on as I'm not there and don't drive the same car as you, but it definitely sounds like letting the clutch out more slowly through that engagement zone should help. I know Hondas are easier to shift and have mythically forgiving clutches, but I find I can get into either 1st or 2nd at speeds under ~10 mph without any drama when I go slowly through the engagement zone. When I let up the clutch more normally, like I would for a normal up shift, it's not as pretty...

http://youtu.be/siwpn14IE7E
Maybe I am approaching this in the wrong mind set which is why I'm conflicted. I appreciate your response Rob. I usually will take 2nd gear at 8 mph and just ride the friction point until I get back to 10 mph+. I'm speaking pretty relative here to when the engine starts to judder when I am in 2nd gear and the speed gets "too low" and the sweet spot seems to be 9-10 mph and it starts to let me know inside the cabin. When it comes to re-engage 1st gear at like 5-7 mph though I feel like I'm bouncing all over the place no matter how slow I "dip" into the friction point (really feathering the movement). I don't apply any gas when I'm moving because I think it makes it even worse but maybe that could be another point of concern? As for the drive way aprons and such that's more or a less of a matter of negotiating more variables plus the scenario above. I use my digital speedo read out religiously to the point where I don't know how well I'd fare driving this car turning it off because I rely on the "exact speed" which turns relative to my gears I guess. I'm sure I could adjust over time but I definitely find myself using it greatly. I love it personally- especially since a lot of people complain that the font and gauge layout of the traditional speedo is too busy and hard to read at a glance.

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by theholycow » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:23 pm

Teamwork wrote:When it comes to re-engage 1st gear at like 5-7 mph though I feel like I'm bouncing all over the place no matter how slow I "dip" into the friction point (really feathering the movement). I don't apply any gas when I'm moving because I think it makes it even worse but maybe that could be another point of concern?
Yeah, you're definitely going to need to give it some gas (enough to hold RPM at the right amount for that gear and speed) or else you'll have a ton of engine braking.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by Teamwork » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:24 am

theholycow wrote: Yeah, you're definitely going to need to give it some gas (enough to hold RPM at the right amount for that gear and speed) or else you'll have a ton of engine braking.
Are we speaking about providing gas when slipping the clutch or before I even engage 1st gear to match the revs for the speed?

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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by potownrob » Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:53 am

Teamwork wrote:I use my digital speedo read out religiously to the point where I don't know how well I'd fare driving this car turning it off because I rely on the "exact speed" which turns relative to my gears I guess. I'm sure I could adjust over time but I definitely find myself using it greatly. I love it personally- especially since a lot of people complain that the font and gauge layout of the traditional speedo is too busy and hard to read at a glance.
your speedo "abuse" may be impeding your learning and adjusting. i would try doing the apron dance without looking at the speedo; try just looking at the road/driveway where you're moving and go for feel when it comes to choosing the right gear and letting the clutch out (and adding gas). i like pizza.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by watkins » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:36 am

Ill second that. Watching the speedo or tach will often make learning to drive more difficult. You need to get used to the feel of the car.
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Re: Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

Post by tankinbeans » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:02 am

I know Mrs. Frizzle has spoiled me when it comes to hill starts. I need to go out and fiddle around on a desserted hill so I can regain that skill (which was always shaky anyway).
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