Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

[IMBoring25]

Yes, you will generally experience more engine braking force the lower the gear you select.

[Rope-Pusher]

Yes, you will generally experience more engine braking force the lower the gear you select.

...but don't shift into a gear that is lower that what you could drive at the speed you are coasting. When you downshift the transmission, the process of synchronization will speed up your clutch disk to the speed the engine would need to go at if driving in that gear. If you overspeed the clutch it can burst apart and ruin your day. New clutches might be able to spin up to 1.5 x engine redline, but clutches that have some experience, especially if overheated at times, can burst at lower speeds.

[theholycow]

I was under the impression that there a point deduction in Europe on a road test if you don't downshift out of an OD gear (seems to be most notably 5th) when coming to a complete stop.

In the US, in many places where there is no parallel parking you can fail the test for not being any good at parallel parking. People proceed to spend the rest of their driving career being unable to parallel park, but they did it long enough to pass the test. You're talking about government tests. Europe isn't special, they have governments full of standard issue government bullcrap like anyone else...obsolete regulations built on pork barrel politics, egomaniacal jerks looking to feel better about themselves by making someone else feel bad, and plenty of Vogons.

Dependence on engine braking made sense in the 1940s when brakes weren't very good. Brakes are a very mature technology now. They're excellent at braking, not deficient.

The older folks over the pond seem to say that that they combine down shifting with brakes in an effort to "stop more efficiently".

Older folks across the pond, just like governments there, are not immune to the same issues that plague them here. They are full of mythology, fuzzy memories of long-obsolete scientific data that was wrong at the time and is more wrong now, and dementia.

If we're talking efficiency, we're talking about trading off the tiniest amount of brake friction material wear for an equally minuscule amount of clutch friction material wear along with some wasted fuel (unless your car has an ultra-aggressive DFCO (Deceleration Fuel Cut Off) policy that no car actually has despite what people want to believe). If you want to (pointlessly) split hairs, fuel is easier to replace than brakes but brakes are easier to replace than clutches and synchros.

You know what else you might find on the other side of the puddle? Handbrake usage at every stop.
http://www.standardshift.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8986
http://www.standardshift.com/forum/view ... f=6&t=3237
That second thread also mentions that "pull push steering" is required by the UK driving test and you'll fail if you slip up and do hand over hand. It might have made sense before power steering, I'm not sure, but it's definitely not something most people would say is important and should be required now.

It's absolutely okay to downshift like that, but equally unnecessary (and if you overdo it then it could be bad (too much braking in too few tires on slick wintry roads for example)). Enjoy it if you want to, but don't go thinking it's a normal or useful part of coming to a stop. Engine braking's best use is controlling speed on long steep descents without your foot getting tired operating that brake pedal (and if you have relatively lame brakes by antique standards or are towing something heavy then you might need engine braking on such a descent to avoid overheating your brakes).

Would my logic be correct that there is more "engine braking applied" if I was trying to stop in a lower gear as opposed to the highest gear though (similar speed- I know not really logical..)

As already discussed earlier when we were discussing jerky shifts, same speed with lower gears and higher RPM results in more acceleration/engine braking due to more leverage.

[IMBoring25]

Apparently, most of the advanced driving courses are picky about "shuffle" steering too, ostensibly because users of hand-over-hand are more susceptible to having their hands get tangled up. It might make a difference when you're trying to do a reverse 180, but I've lost more time to laggy power steering than I ever have to bungled hand management.

[potownrob]

The slowing clutch dump whine...makes me cringe every time some bulb does it. I don't, but...shudder...

when i hear it, it's usually a riced out civic or beat-up pick-up truck

[potownrob]

also, isn't europe the land of $1k+ licensing expenses and nearly impossible driver's tests?? i never heard of the downshifting-whilst-braking requirement (though they probably make you perform a downshift or 10), but i have heard of the handbrake on a hill requirement and vaguely remember hearing (reading) about shuffle steering like it's the only way to do it. also something about it being illegal to shift in the middle of an intersection ( ) and of course while crossing train tracks (also illegal here, no??). i didn't take my test in a manual, and i took it stateside, so not sure how a typical european test would be.

[tankinbeans]

The slowing clutch dump whine...makes me cringe every time some bulb does it. I don't, but...shudder...

when i hear it, it's usually a riced out civic or beat-up pick-up truck

Because fart cans or straight pipes sound totally spiffy-keen and groovy when raped and pillaged.

[Teamwork]

Thanks for the feed back all I am well acquainted with the handbrake method at stops. Some of the better videos I've watched to learn (before I made it here) were through European driving instructors and I found that weird how liberally they use the e-brake. I wonder if because they use them significantly more if they end up weakening the line or having issues later in life with the car.

As for braking down in 6th gear I will continue to do so.

The only rational (and I might need to be slapped and corrected here) for when I will always downshift into 5th or 4th directly from 6th is essentially when I'm getting off my exit going to work which the exit ramp is literally a ramp with an incline (hill) and a traffic light at the top. I'm getting off the freeway at a freeway speed which is probably 65ish mph and I usually downshift the gear to bleed off speed and properly work my way up and get myself into the correct right of way lane while negotiating people possibly cutting in front of me (causing me to possibly have to slow down more but still have to crawl up a steep grade). I'd say 15-20% of the time I can catch going up this grade with the light turning green and it's perfect. Is the downshift as soon as I commit merging right off the freeway seem like an unnecessary notion or does it seem reasonable given the variables here? The primary reason why I do it is so I can initially bleed off speed from the freeway speed and then have more torque to crawl up the grade as opposed to in 6th where the throttle would need a liberal push to feel any difference.

[tankinbeans]

TL:DRA

I personally only rarely downshit to bleed off speed. In the situation you describe I would revmatch into my gear and use the brakes to slow down. If you're practicing heel-toe downshits this is a great time to do it. I regularly heel-toe when exiting the freeway (especially as I enter a new one) so I can carry speed through the turn and pin it.

I usually get stuck behind a Toyota having no idea how to accelerate. Being in that lower gear makes gunning it past so much easier.

[Rope-Pusher]

Yeah, like the Cow said,...and also....
No manufacturers offer anti-lock downshifting!

[theholycow]

I am well acquainted with the handbrake method at stops.

To clarify, that example wasn't an attempt to explain or recommend handbrake usage, merely pointing it out as an example of something useless that may be required by the same government whose requirement you cited.

I wonder if because they use them significantly more if they end up weakening the line or having issues later in life with the car.

I have always used the parking brake for parking, even in automatics, ever since I got out of my truck (in P) and it started going downhill with a single tire skidding on ice and the other three rolling. I've broken cables, worn and broken parking brake friction materials/actuators/etc, and in my Buick I've destroyed 2 or 3 parking brake pedal assemblies (the pedal arm would twist and bend because of the force required).

I kept replacing them, but then one time it was in the shop and I let them do something with my rear brakes and they decided that the stiff parking brake pedal wasn't good so they replaced a buncha stuff and adjusted stuff and now it's easy to press but it doesn't hold the dang car on anything more than a minor grade. I'm too lazy to bother messing with it.

I usually downshift the gear to bleed off speed and properly work my way up and get myself into the correct right of way lane while negotiating people possibly cutting in front of me (causing me to possibly have to slow down more but still have to crawl up a steep grade). I'd say 15-20% of the time I can catch going up this grade with the light turning green and it's perfect. Is the downshift as soon as I commit merging right off the freeway seem like an unnecessary notion or does it seem reasonable given the variables here? The primary reason why I do it is so I can initially bleed off speed from the freeway speed and then have more torque to crawl up the grade as opposed to in 6th where the throttle would need a liberal push to feel any difference.

Downshifting to bleed off speed: Seriously, brakes are made for that job.

Downshifting as preparation for delivering more acceleration: That's exactly what downshifting is for.

There is one context, besides the cliched mountain descent, in which downshifting for engine braking is especially useful -- and just like the cliched mountain descent, this is just as useful in automatics as manuals and I practiced it in automatics for years before I had a manual. Sometimes it is unnecessary but convenient to have the accelerator pedal do some braking too during complex maneuvers in unpredictable situations...more pedal more acceleration, less pedal more braking. It has nothing to do with being better for the car or enhancing performance or anything like that; it's merely a lazy way to move my foot less. It sounds like you might be describing such a situation with language like "negotiating people possibly cutting in front of me (causing me to possibly have to slow down more but still have to crawl up a steep grade)".

Speaking of handbrakes and lazy ways to move my foot less, an automatic with a handbrake is the perfect car for stop-and-go traffic...just use that handbrake and sit there in D with lazy feet.

[Teamwork]

Now that this thread has over 100 replies and 1700 views I just wanted to give some updates and notations from how I feel now from where I was two months ago. I know this isn't the most active of forums but there is a ton of good material pages back. I find myself literally flipping to random pages and exploring different threads in my free time trying to expand my knowledge.

I'm still somewhat inconsistent on things but it's mostly being hard on myself so I feel. In my mind if I have like 3 rough shifts out of a lot of shuffling and shifting in a 35 mile trek it'd linger in my mind so when I have good days (which I believe I do) it's pretty much impeccable performance in my mind. I know this gets debated in and out multiple threads, it's stickied even, and asked about a lot- but I don't really think I'm doing the no gas launch. I did it a ton when I was really, really, new (like first 2 months in rolling around a parking lot) but now what I do is pretty much spontaneous (maybe a tad before) gas + lift off to the clutch. I do use the no gas launch when I'm inching up in que for a stop sign or when I'm in stop and go traffic and I want to inch up a little but I find myself setting the gas and riding the clutch pretty much at the same time. It seems smooth to me where sometimes a no gas launch feels somewhat rough at times. The clutch to my understanding in this car likes to be paused at the friction point and then gently lifted off when momentum is gained. What I'm trying to say I guess is at times when I'm doing a no gas launch or even reversing with minimal gas (or no gas as well) the engine note turns fairly 'gravely'. Like it won't stall but it just doesn't sound too healthy.

This thread really helped me be able to up shift better. I still hiccup here and there 1st to 2nd but that's honestly the only shift I make a conscious effort thinking about. Right after I made this thread and was recommended the advice to add a coinswidth of throttle RIGHT after the up shift it really smoothed out nearly everything. Also, learning how to have the clutch absorb the rev hang as opposed to waiting forever really helped me get up to 40-50 mph faster without getting beat off the line by a mini-van.

I still sometimes falter at 90 degree turns but I at least have different approaches and experience now that I can take. I still can't heel and toe but I admittedly find it hard to practice around here and haven't been doing so. If I think I can take the turn without yielding in 3rd gear (so hypothetically I would probably be going into it at 15-16 mph) I will do it with relative ease. If I think I need to slow down even further, want to move out more liberally after I turn, or have someone on my tail, I'll blip the throttle after slowing down (braking) and move the gear into 2nd and feather out the clutch pausing at the bite. It's definitely not perfect most of the time but I think my problem in the past was I was lifting off the clutch too fast and not gently "easing into it" when re-engaging 2nd gear.

I always try and match revs for whenever I'm moving down gears in a conscious motion but when it comes to resuming traffic- for instance if I'm yielding to stopped traffic and they start moving off before I come to a complete stop, I'll typically just go into the highest gear possible (keeping the revs low) and ease out the clutch so the rpm's only have to rise up like 200-300 from idle. I don't usually blip it... but the process seems pretty seamless in approaching it this way. The only time it's not is when I'm between 7-8 mph and fumbling between 2nd and 1st. If I try and re-engage 1st gear moving 5-6 mph I make a serious conscious and precise motion- easing into the friction point or the car bucks like a bronco.

Segwaying into a related topic my achilles heel is still shuffling through parking lot movements. Around 8 mph in 2nd gear the engine sounds unhealthy, at 7 mph the engine is physically beating me up inside the cabin. 1st gear is applicable at these speeds but as soon as it gets above 10 mph it's a noise maker. I usually just find a way to get into 1st and just move at a snails pace within busy parking lots. I honestly can't figure out any other easier way to go about this in approach. I usually hover my left foot over the clutch for when I have to inevitably stop for someone walking out in front of traffic or a car backing out into traffic.

The only additional question I think I've had is when parking is it better to hold the clutch in and have the car in gear while turning it off or could I just turn it off in neutral and clutch and put it back in gear? I only ask because I watched a video recently saying that the first part was the correct method of parking. If I park with the car facing a decline I'll leave it in reverse, if I park on level ground or facing an incline I'll leave the car in 2nd. I use 2nd gear because when I was starting out it was much more noticeable that it was left in gear as opposed to 1st to my eyes at least.

I think this is all I really have to report back on and finally add a picture of my car.

[potownrob]

Now that this thread has over 100 replies and 1700 views I just wanted to give some updates and notations from how I feel now from where I was two months ago. I know this isn't the most active of forums but there is a ton of good material pages back. I find myself literally flipping to random pages and exploring different threads in my free time trying to expand my knowledge.

dude, i thought you died. gotta do like me and post random meaningless stuff every few days

I'm still somewhat inconsistent on things but it's mostly being hard on myself so I feel. In my mind if I have like 3 rough shifts out of a lot of shuffling and shifting in a 35 mile trek it'd linger in my mind so when I have good days (which I believe I do) it's pretty much impeccable performance in my mind. I know this gets debated in and out multiple threads, it's stickied even, and asked about a lot- but I don't really think I'm doing the no gas launch. I did it a ton when I was really, really, new (like first 2 months in rolling around a parking lot) but now what I do is pretty much spontaneous (maybe a tad before) gas + lift off to the clutch. I do use the no gas launch when I'm inching up in que for a stop sign or when I'm in stop and go traffic and I want to inch up a little but I find myself setting the gas and riding the clutch pretty much at the same time. It seems smooth to me where sometimes a no gas launch feels somewhat rough at times. The clutch to my understanding in this car likes to be paused at the friction point and then gently lifted off when momentum is gained. What I'm trying to say I guess is at times when I'm doing a no gas launch or even reversing with minimal gas (or no gas as well) the engine note turns fairly 'gravely'. Like it won't stall but it just doesn't sound too healthy.

sounds like you've got it down overall; don't be so hard on yourself.

This thread really helped me be able to up shift better. I still hiccup here and there 1st to 2nd but that's honestly the only shift I make a conscious effort thinking about. Right after I made this thread and was recommended the advice to add a coinswidth of throttle RIGHT after the up shift it really smoothed out nearly everything. Also, learning how to have the clutch absorb the rev hang as opposed to waiting forever really helped me get up to 40-50 mph faster without getting beat off the line by a mini-van.

you're welcome

I still sometimes falter at 90 degree turns but I at least have different approaches and experience now that I can take. I still can't heel and toe but I admittedly find it hard to practice around here and haven't been doing so. If I think I can take the turn without yielding in 3rd gear (so hypothetically I would probably be going into it at 15-16 mph) I will do it with relative ease. If I think I need to slow down even further, want to move out more liberally after I turn, or have someone on my tail, I'll blip the throttle after slowing down (braking) and move the gear into 2nd and feather out the clutch pausing at the bite. It's definitely not perfect most of the time but I think my problem in the past was I was lifting off the clutch too fast and not gently "easing into it" when re-engaging 2nd gear.

you're figuring it out. and don't think we vets don't mess up at least now and then.

I always try and match revs for whenever I'm moving down gears in a conscious motion but when it comes to resuming traffic- for instance if I'm yielding to stopped traffic and they start moving off before I come to a complete stop, I'll typically just go into the highest gear possible (keeping the revs low) and ease out the clutch so the rpm's only have to rise up like 200-300 from idle. I don't usually blip it... but the process seems pretty seamless in approaching it this way. The only time it's not is when I'm between 7-8 mph and fumbling between 2nd and 1st. If I try and re-engage 1st gear moving 5-6 mph I make a serious conscious and precise motion- easing into the friction point or the car bucks like a bronco.

sounds about right. i don't always rev match, especially when shifting into the appropriate gear for the speed the car's rolling.

Segwaying into a related topic my achilles heel is still shuffling through parking lot movements. Around 8 mph in 2nd gear the engine sounds unhealthy, at 7 mph the engine is physically beating me up inside the cabin. 1st gear is applicable at these speeds but as soon as it gets above 10 mph it's a noise maker. I usually just find a way to get into 1st and just move at a snails pace within busy parking lots. I honestly can't figure out any other easier way to go about this in approach. I usually hover my left foot over the clutch for when I have to inevitably stop for someone walking out in front of traffic or a car backing out into traffic.

i hear you on this one. first is too low but 2nd too high, right?? i dealt with that the other day - was going around a parking lot in 2nd and felt like the car was accelerating on its own. had to ride the brakes to keep the car from taking off. you will eventually use 2nd more and not be as bothered by the low engine speed, vibrations and potential runaway car risk. i also find myself using higher gears than i did in other cars, since my engine and car can still accelerate at (somewhat) lower rpms than most other cars i've had.

The only additional question I think I've had is when parking is it better to hold the clutch in and have the car in gear while turning it off or could I just turn it off in neutral and clutch and put it back in gear? I only ask because I watched a video recently saying that the first part was the correct method of parking. If I park with the car facing a decline I'll leave it in reverse, if I park on level ground or facing an incline I'll leave the car in 2nd. I use 2nd gear because when I was starting out it was much more noticeable that it was left in gear as opposed to 1st to my eyes at least.

ok, i think that first method is part one of a 3 part parking method where you turn off the car in gear, let the car roll back while in gear (to "lock" it in place ) then set the parking brake. i find it absolutely offensive, no matter how true it might be. i always shift into neutral and let out the clutch before turning off the car, then i set the parking brake and let off the brake pedal. then i shift into reverse (or 2nd) before getting out of the car. not sure what is better, or if it's a myth that any of the methods is better than another.

I think this is all I really have to report back on and finally add a picture of my car.

Red?!?! Watch out mom!!!!

no pics of my car handy, but here's a pic of me with my commemorative jones beach dumpster (from the 2007 SS meet):

[theholycow]

I don't really think I'm doing the no gas launch

You're not expected to use it for the majority of situations, mostly just those where you'd prefer it. It is important to be able to do it, but more so, learning to do it well is an important part of training your foot for fine clutch control and calibrating your senses for detecting an imminent engine stall.

What I'm trying to say I guess is at times when I'm doing a no gas launch or even reversing with minimal gas (or no gas as well) the engine note turns fairly 'gravely'. Like it won't stall but it just doesn't sound too healthy.

Around 8 mph in 2nd gear the engine sounds unhealthy, at 7 mph the engine is physically beating me up inside the cabin.

Listen to your car, when it's calling for you.
Listen to your car, there's nothing else you can do.
I don't know why you're going and I don't know where,
But listen to your car before you stay in a gear.

1st gear is applicable at these speeds but as soon as it gets above 10 mph it's a noise maker

I'm guessing the idea is you don't want to shift to 2nd because you'll probably need first again in a moment? Pulse and glide. Take it up to 10, then declutch and coast at idle RPM. Re-engaging the clutch again is going to take some finesses but it beats fighting with your engine or revving around like an overexcited ricer.

The only additional question I think I've had is when parking is it better to hold the clutch in and have the car in gear while turning it off or could I just turn it off in neutral and clutch and put it back in gear?

There is not sufficient language with which I could label this issue. "Inconsequential" doesn't suffice to express the extent of how minuscule the difference is.

Declutched and in gear: You turn off engine. Engine stops. Clutch and input shaft are at a stop because you are in gear and not in motion. You take your foot off the clutch pedal and the clutch says hello to the flywheel.

Clutch engaged and in neutral: You turn off engine. Clutch and input shaft are stopped by engine. Gears and synchronizers are at a stop because you are in gear and not in motion. You shift into gear and the transmission guts say hello to each other.

I use 2nd gear because when I was starting out it was much more noticeable that it was left in gear as opposed to 1st to my eyes at least.

I'm not sure why that's important, but since it is, why not use reverse? That has more leverage than 2nd, often even more than 1st.

[theholycow]

ok, i think that first method is part one of a 3 part parking method where you turn off the car in gear, let the car roll back while in gear (to "lock" it in place ) then set the parking brake. i find it absolutely offensive, no matter how true it might be.

It's harmless either way.

My driveway is steep and my parking brake is never as tight as I want it so I practice a similar procedure. I leave it in gear and as the engine is coming to a stop I engage the clutch, before the engine has completely stopped. This pre-loads the drivetrain so that the tires are holding the car against the hill through the engine. Then I set the parking brake. In my wife's car with a handbrake I can set the brake first (and still pre-load the drivetrain as described), but in my Buick with its foot-operated parking brake it's physically impossible...even if I wanted to use my right foot on the clutch and my left foot on the parking brake they'd never fit, my foot on the parking brake pedal barely clears the clutch pedal.

If I park in neutral, set the parking brake, shut off the engine, wait for it to stop, and then put it in gear then sometimes my car will roll back a little because the parking brake is having a bad day or I failed to get it down to that last click. Worse, though, is when it DOESN'T roll back a little; then I fear that it will roll back a little when I'm not in it -- and if the parking brake should snap at that moment then it may roll back a whole lot. With the drivetrain pre-loaded, the engine and the parking brake work together; without it, the brake must take all the stress until it fails and then the drivetrain gets whacked with a shock load that can turn it despite engine compression because the car gained momentum, AND that same momentum can contribute to loss of traction on icy ground even if the engine doesn't budge.

Those are very real concerns in my car but they're pretty much inconsequential and academic for most people. However, I can provide one thought on the matter that does apply: With FWD, pre-loading the drivetrain and setting the brake provides braking at both axles to keep the car parked in slick conditions.