Refining Technique & Scenario Based Q's

[theholycow]

Okay. My dad just got a 2015 Dodge Challenger Hellcat, and of course its manual transmission. My dad also has a body shop with lots of junk cars, (just trying to give some insight on my situation). Knowing that the car is stick shift I decided to find a junk car that is also stick to learn. It took me till the end of the day to get the hang of it but i was in a good place. Btw the car i used was a hyundai tiburon, weak in comparison to the Hellcat. Anyways my dad let me drive it after he saw i knew how to. And ive been driving for a couple of days but i have one major problem. I need a few tips on how to put it in 1st gear. With the tiburon i noticed the clutch is soft and easy to put in 1st. But with the hellcat its real hard and i stall out often when putting it in first. And its only first gear i have the problem. I just need a few tips or techniques to help me put it in first with a heavy clutch

So you are able to move the shifter into the 1st gear position, but you're stalling when you attempt to engage the clutch (that is, allow the clutch pedal to come up)?

By "heavy clutch" do you mean the pedal requires a lot of pressure to push it down?

In my sig there is a link to my "meta-sig". There, you will fine some exercises that you can practice to help you learn to launch that car without stalling.

[Teamwork]

Okay. My dad just got a 2015 Dodge Challenger Hellcat, and of course its manual transmission. My dad also has a body shop with lots of junk cars, (just trying to give some insight on my situation). Knowing that the car is stick shift I decided to find a junk car that is also stick to learn. It took me till the end of the day to get the hang of it but i was in a good place. Btw the car i used was a hyundai tiburon, weak in comparison to the Hellcat. Anyways my dad let me drive it after he saw i knew how to. And ive been driving for a couple of days but i have one major problem. I need a few tips on how to put it in 1st gear. With the tiburon i noticed the clutch is soft and easy to put in 1st. But with the hellcat its real hard and i stall out often when putting it in first. And its only first gear i have the problem. I just need a few tips or techniques to help me put it in first with a heavy clutch

I think I'm at least somewhat qualified to answer this question to a degree but I think I need more information first. When I first started I was basing my experience on brief encounters with manual cars I've tried out in the past. To be honest I know your dad probably doesn't want you beginner beating on a brand new car but I feel like the practice I've had before hand on other cars was kind of irrelevant to a degree. Not irrelevant to the learning the motions aspects but every clutch is typically very different and each kind of car has it's own characteristics and qwirks. For example; just because I was able to drive a 2001 VW Golf with an N/A engine around a large parking lot with relative ease didn't mean I was bullet proof with my 2015 VW GTI (I wasn't at all). The clutch feel had extremely different characteristics, friction point, and overall pedal feel.

As for going into 1st gear; do you mean more specifically that you're having trouble moving off in 1st gear? You'll probably have to adjust where the friction point is in the clutch travel and how big of a thresh hold it is. 5 months ago for me I was attempting to do no gas launches just to feel out the point but my travel to the friction point was so long I would get anxious and move right out of a small friction zone. I pretty much became accustomed to adding gas simultaneously while feeling for the friction point which helped me greatly. The only time I ever do no gas starts personally into 1st is when I'm making minor corrections in a parking spot or when I need to inch up to a stop sign where I need to move up to have better vision of traffic.

[watkins]

The Hellcat has a really stiff shifter. Its a very robust transmission (look at what else its in) and Ive see people who manage to not fully engage gears because theres often a lot of pushback from the synchros. The clutch is pretty terrible in my opinion. Its thankfully not soft, but there really isnt much feedback which can make launching hard when combined with the throttle mapping.

Either way, youll get used to it. Its so much worse in the Viper.

And dont take the red key.

[Ayoussef423]

The Hellcat has a really stiff shifter. Its a very robust transmission (look at what else its in) and Ive see people who manage to not fully engage gears because theres often a lot of pushback from the synchros. The clutch is pretty terrible in my opinion. Its thankfully not soft, but there really isnt much feedback which can make launching hard when combined with the throttle mapping.

Either way, youll get used to it. Its so much worse in the Viper.

And dont take the red key.

Haha thats the only one i use. The black key is the one my dad leaves at the house.

[Teamwork]

Now that we've accumulated over 2 feet of snow on the island with mediocre plowing services I had a two questions in regards to operating in the snow:

When it comes to launching when sitting in a few inches of slush/snow/ice I'm guessing the best route of action is holding the clutch in the bite until you feel like you're gaining traction and moving out + lower rpm start with slowly progressive revs? I'm guessing there's no way around slipping the clutch in the friction point for a longer amount of time if you're fighting for traction?

The other question has to do with staying in gear and fighting traction. I've only stalled out "in gear" (2nd gear- other then 1st) in a parking lot once when a car essentially slammed the gas going backwards and I had to brake abruptly (I guess I didn't get the clutch down in time). When it comes to fighting traction and being in a lower gear what would cause the engine to stall? The actual revs of the engine or the rate that the wheels are moving? I ask because sometimes if you're fighting traction going through a turn you'll end up not really guiding through the turn with throttle/revs and might be off the gas completely and I don't want to stall in a low gear going at a slower rate through the turns. What I have been doing is if I know there's a significant amount of mess in the intersection I've been just "gliding" through the turn and controlling with the brake and then putting it back into gear when I know I can work myself out of it. A lot of the local junctions basically seemed unplowed and cars have been just spinning out through them (automatic or manual). This snow is going to be here through mid February...

[theholycow]

Regular launching in snow: Same as always just more gentle and slow. You might need to slip the clutch more but not lower your engine speed. It is, if anything, an advantage that you have that added control over traction (once you've got a good clutch foot).

If you have stalled with no traction then you probably stepped on the brakes and they stopped the wheels (along with everything connected to them). When there's sufficiently bad traction the car can be completely stopped and the idling engine can spin the tires (as with an automatic).

[Teamwork]

Regular launching in snow: Same as always just more gentle and slow. You might need to slip the clutch more but not lower your engine speed. It is, if anything, an advantage that you have that added control over traction (once you've got a good clutch foot).

If you have stalled with no traction then you probably stepped on the brakes and they stopped the wheels (along with everything connected to them). When there's sufficiently bad traction the car can be completely stopped and the idling engine can spin the tires (as with an automatic).

I figured so much for the launches that it would just be a slower and more careful process.

For the second question though I think I need more theory for even non-inclement weather scenarios of why a vehicle will stall in gear. From what I gathered in your response I could technically be not moving at all but spinning tires in 2nd gear and still not stall? When you stall in gear in say the scenario that I posed when I had to abruptly, emergency brake, is it a combination of the drop engine speed and tires not moving or does it ultimately have to do with the tachometer revs (or D) All of the above?)

On a side note I have to watch approach and departure angles in the left over snow/ice (at night) because our car utilizes a plastic oil pan and about 7-8'' of ground clearance stock and the reports are already flooding in with cracked and broken pans so I've been just taking it painfully slow and easy when trekking through excess snow/slush.

[IMBoring25]

When the transmission is in gear and the clutch pedal is fully out, provided the car is in good repair, the drive wheels are mechanically linked with the engine. Stalling happens in gear with the clutch pedal released if the drive wheels are moving far too slowly for the given gear. If you lock up the tires with the brakes the car can stall even while still moving, but short of locking up the tires the engine should start to perceptibly strain before it stalls.

[Teamwork]

When the transmission is in gear and the clutch pedal is fully out, provided the car is in good repair, the drive wheels are mechanically linked with the engine. Stalling happens in gear with the clutch pedal released if the drive wheels are moving far too slowly for the given gear. If you lock up the tires with the brakes the car can stall even while still moving, but short of locking up the tires the engine should start to perceptibly strain before it stalls.

Okay thanks- that was easy to understand and comprehend. Usually if I'm braking to what will be a known stop (not a stale red light) if I'm in 6th gear I have to usually take it to neutral quite a bit early before I'm even crawling to the stop. I usually just use the tach and the traffic variables to when I pull it out of gear and into neutral. I have a good feeling since I have access to other vehicles that will fair better in the snow that my time in this car for the snow will be limited to lesser snow storms and not 2 feet in 10 hour blizzards.

Kind of segwaying to a related topic: when it comes to resuming traffic (meeting up with stopped traffic that started moving because of a green light) after slowing down in a gear that's too high for the speed that I had to slow too I usually put the clutch down and make a conscious decision to go into a gear where the rev's will start out really low (like just above idle). I'll feather the clutch out slowly and progressively and usually just carry on traffic this way. I don't typically rev match as the rev's in the gear I choose is usually just right above idle- the transition of going down into the gear is typically jerk free and fairly smooth. Occasionally I'll choose a gear (too low) that isn't above idle and I'll get a small jerk if I don't match the rev's but most of the time I'm pretty good about choosing a high gear that I can power out of. Is this a pretty good approach or should I always be trying to match revs even if it's only 200-300 rpm's above idle or is it negligible?

I'm getting better at blipping the throttle into the turns when slowing down. At the leisurely speeds I go around 90 degree turns when I'm not gunning it or anything I really only need a "soft" blip that raises the tach up 200-400 rpm's above idle and I typically can't believe how seamless it transitions with pretty much lifting up the clutch instantly. I'm getting better at it for sure- but heel and toeing just seems extremely difficult. Same problems apply where the brake pedal bites so hard on any first initial pressure and the throttle with my heel (I inversed the way I was originally trying it)... DOA.

[theholycow]

Looking at the stalling issue turned inside-out to put some numbers on it, I can bump start in high gear in most cars at 10-15mph. The same cars should stay awake if I forget to take it out of high gear (or at least declutch) as low as that speed. Lower gears will allow survival at even lower speeds. 2nd gear shouldn't cause a stall as long as the car is still perceptibly moving.

Your resuming traffic scenario sounds a lot like what I do.

[Teamwork]

Looking at the stalling issue turned inside-out to put some numbers on it, I can bump start in high gear in most cars at 10-15mph. The same cars should stay awake if I forget to take it out of high gear (or at least declutch) as low as that speed. Lower gears will allow survival at even lower speeds. 2nd gear shouldn't cause a stall as long as the car is still perceptibly moving.

Your resuming traffic scenario sounds a lot like what I do.

I really don't know the actual thresh hold but I can state for fact/sure that this car in 2nd gear gets visibly upset with me if I dip below 10 mph. That's when the judders start fairly mild, but as soon as it's below 8 mph- a liberal amount of throttle is needed or it's pounding me inside the cabin. I don't know how long it can be played out but it feels terrible- the time I stalled in 2nd gear was a fairly abrupt emergency stop in a parking lot where it was either brake suddenly and stall or clip a car reversing out with no regard as the two viable options.

Yeah I resume in traffic in a gear that's typically the "higher choice" rather then the lower (of a two gear option, logically). It usually puts me right above revs in the range so I don't even bother blipping for it. I wanted to know more or less if this is viable to do without rev matching since it's only 200-300 revs above idle and I can engage the gear smoothly without jerking. Obviously if I wanted to move a little more liberally I'd rev match into a lower gear but in leisurely traffic crawls this is what I do 90% of the time and I think it makes sense.

While on the topic am I putting harm to my car by choosing "the higher" of 2 logical gears? Supposed scenario here to paint it a little more vividly is essentially when I'm between 1st and 2nd gear around that always brought up 7-8 mph range. The two options seem to be go into 2nd and slip it for a noticeable longer period of time or it'll judder and need at least 1/2 throttle pressure just to save it from dying or go into 1st gear and gently let out the clutch while pausing in the friction point. For going back into 1st, it usually works out fairly well for me... it'll lightly buck sometimes more then others but it's not like my head's bouncing off the ceiling of the car. I ask because almost anywhere I read or look they state it's really bad to go back into 1st gear when the car is anything but a standstill or a dead 2 mph crawl. On a more specific model note I've read various complaints that people would try and go into 2nd gear on a slow roll of around 5-6 mph and would end up stalling... Head spinning.

[theholycow]

I really don't know the actual thresh hold but I can state for fact/sure that this car in 2nd gear gets visibly upset with me if I dip below 10 mph. That's when the judders start fairly mild, but as soon as it's below 8 mph- a liberal amount of throttle is needed or it's pounding me inside the cabin. I don't know how long it can be played out but it feels terrible

Ok, that's an entirely different issue than stalling. I didn't realize you were talking about using the engine to drive the car. A discussion of stalling in gear is about how low you can go during braking before you have to step on the clutch pedal to prevent stalling; that's a whole lot lower than how low you can go and then step on the gas because you want to accelerate.

Anyway, regardless of what you're doing, if your engine tells you it's in pain then listen to it. Pounding, juddering, etc in this context all mean you should choose a lower gear for that purpose.

I wanted to know more or less if this is viable to do without rev matching since it's only 200-300 revs above idle and I can engage the gear smoothly without jerking.

Rev-matching is entirely optional in all ranges. In that situation its usefulness is even more marginal. Go ahead and skip rev-matching there if you want.

While on the topic am I putting harm to my car by choosing "the higher" of 2 logical gears?

If you're hearing groaning, rumbling, other odd noises, or feeling juddering/pounding/bucking then even though you're probably not doing any immediately acute damage it can't be healthy. If it's smooth, accelerates as much as you want it to, and sounds like it ought to then it's fine.

I ask because almost anywhere I read or look they state it's really bad to go back into 1st gear when the car is anything but a standstill or a dead 2 mph crawl.

That advice is classic but is growing somewhat obsolete. On older cars and those with less-well-synchronized 1st gears it can be difficult to get into 1st above a crawl; and if someone who's not good at double-clutching just ham-handedly forces it daily then he's going to chew up 1st's synchronizer (or dog teeth if unsynchronized). On newer cars, especially ones with really nicely synchronized 1st gears like yours, it's not so hard to do so the advice is less applicable. I'd say don't do it if it's difficult, but if it goes easily then go ahead and do it when necessary. Later, if you get good at double clutching, you can do it on any vehicle.

[Teamwork]

Thanks again Cow for all of the information and replies.

Ok, that's an entirely different issue than stalling. I didn't realize you were talking about using the engine to drive the car. A discussion of stalling in gear is about how low you can go during braking before you have to step on the clutch pedal to prevent stalling; that's a whole lot lower than how low you can go and then step on the gas because you want to accelerate.

Anyway, regardless of what you're doing, if your engine tells you it's in pain then listen to it. Pounding, juddering, etc in this context all mean you should choose a lower gear for that purpose.

Yeah I kind of crossed the two topics into one. Again, I'm unsure of how far I can go without stalling (killing the engine completely) in 2nd gear because the one time I stalled in 2nd I was emergency braking and didn't get the clutch down in time- but it was pretty much immediate in terms of pressing the brake down. I can only speak for the engine starting to sound gravely below 10 mph in 2nd gear and only it gets to 7-8 mph in 2nd it's really unhappy with me at this point. I only know this on the basis of yielding (slowing down) to current traffic conditions and having to restart in either 1st or 2nd gear around 7-8 mph to keep up (since traffic moved from a stop by the time I was closing distance to the next car).

Rev-matching is entirely optional in all ranges. In that situation its usefulness is even more marginal. Go ahead and skip rev-matching there if you want.

I have been because it's kind of hard to modulate going up 100-200 rpm without "over-reving" and I feel like I will end up over-reving and that will give me a worse jerk then if I just feather the clutch out lightly and let it go up without doing so.

That advice is classic but is growing somewhat obsolete. On older cars and those with less-well-synchronized 1st gears it can be difficult to get into 1st above a crawl; and if someone who's not good at double-clutching just ham-handedly forces it daily then he's going to chew up 1st's synchronizer (or dog teeth if unsynchronized). On newer cars, especially ones with really nicely synchronized 1st gears like yours, it's not so hard to do so the advice is less applicable. I'd say don't do it if it's difficult, but if it goes easily then go ahead and do it when necessary. Later, if you get good at double clutching, you can do it on any vehicle.

I think this is where I have to "shut my brain off". It's pretty much stemming a lot of the above scenarios but more or less I'm wondering if it's kosher and healthy for the car because I've been fed the line to not use 1st or go down into 1st unless barely moving or complete stand still. I've been going back into 1st gear probably up to 5-7 mph even and I just have to be gentle and careful or it'll buck. If I am successful the transition is pretty smooth and seamless but I'm definitely making a conscious effort not to lift up off the friction point too fast. In 2nd gear as stated above the engine typically sounds pretty gravely and will judder until I give it a liberal amount of throttle. I feel a light resistance when re-engaging first but it's not forcing me out of the gate.

On a side note with the parking lots I definitely feel more comfortable in 1st gear, then 2nd gear when moving at a walking pace. I usually try and double clutch into 1st gear and the results are pretty good. Sometimes if I'm bleeding off speed in 2nd gear reaching that juddering point I'll just directly shift into 1st and be gentle lifting off the clutch and that seems to work as well. Is there an advantage or disadvantage of doing one over the other?

[theholycow]

more or less I'm wondering if it's kosher and healthy for the car because I've been fed the line to not use 1st or go down into 1st unless barely moving or complete stand still.

As I said, it used to be more important than it is now. It's an old rule of thumb that hasn't had a chance to wither and die yet, as there are still plenty of older cars and probably some new ones too that don't have the luxury of easy entry into 1st at speed. It's still a nice idea to avoid it when easy to do so, but your car demands it at speeds higher than other cars so there's really no question to ask. Do what your car demands.

I usually try and double clutch into 1st gear and the results are pretty good. Sometimes if I'm bleeding off speed in 2nd gear reaching that juddering point I'll just directly shift into 1st and be gentle lifting off the clutch and that seems to work as well. Is there an advantage or disadvantage of doing one over the other?

This goes directly back to the same improvement in synchronizers that we're already discussing. In your car the technical advantage is a matter of splitting hairs, if there's even an advantage at all. By DCing you reduce regular wear on 1st's synchronizers (designed to last for the life of the car) but you can't wash one hand without making the other dirty; you increase regular usage of the entire clutch release system (the affected parts of which are also designed to last for the life of the car, and some of which will get replaced anyway during routine clutch replacement if it should ever be done). By at least SC rev-matching you reduce regular wear on the clutch disc/pressure plate/flywheel but it's minuscule and not worth considering.

If you get good at double-clutching and your DBW throttle responds quickly enough then you might find a minor but real advantage in time spent; it might take less time for you to DC into 1st.

[Teamwork]

Thanks Cow, I think I got a firmer understanding, more time under my belt, and great answers from this thread. A lot of the questions presented in the pages were essentially me refining my techniques and not really deciding if I could drive or make it somewhere. I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future but I really feel pretty good right now where I'm at. Between supplementing the advice given and actually trial testing it in the real world I feel pretty competent.

Scenarios where I still falter that I can think of off the top of my head is when I get "faked out" by traffic in front of me. I will notice that the light turns green and the SUV in front of me will start to move- I don't move off immediately to try and minimize the chances of this happening to me but every so often the car in front will stop pretty abruptly and start moving again nearly within a second. So I'll brake and clutch down thinking we're going to stop and then have to lift off again but by this speed I usually need to be in 2nd or I'll hop a little. Sometimes I have the sub conscious thought to quickly go into 2nd and other times I forget and feather out in 1st and face palm.

I fear large speed bumps but not so much because I don't know what to do but because I don't want to scrape. I'll usually try and coast with either the clutch down or neutral as I'm approaching it while slowing down and try and gauge to have enough momentum to get my front two tires over the bump. Then I'll take the rest of it in 1st gear using clutch control to get my rear two tires over. Sometimes I'm graceful and sometimes I'm not... I can't believe how many of the parking lots I frequent have these things. I try and avoid them at all costs.

In terms of positive reinforcement though... I've been implementing rev match blips to lower gears in terms pretty seamlessly now. I knew earlier today I wasn't trying to wrecklessly beat a traffic light but I'd have to be quick on my feet and I didn't fumble with the gear shifter or the pedal movements. It was really a pleasant surprise. I feel like I think about it less and just do it sub consciously. I still have an issue doing really big blips if I have to skip directly down 2 gears- it just feels muted and inconsistent most of the time but it's good enough I think.

Thanks again to all who contribute here.