Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

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DashboardSaint
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Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by DashboardSaint » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:11 am

Hello All,

I’ve been driving stick for about a month now, having no prior experience with it. I’m improving week by week, but I still make mistakes and I wouldn’t quite say “I’ve got it” yet. I’m not well-versed in car talk so I’ll try my best to describe the situation I’m having.

So here’s an issue I’m running into. The situation is I’m driving along in 3rd or 4th gear. The car in front of me decides to stop, let’s say he’s making a left turn so I don’t know when he’s going to move out of my way. He’s a few car lengths ahead, so I slow down, slow down, slow down, he’s still in my path so I clutch in, put it in neutral, and come to a stop. But as soon as I stop he moves and I need to keep going. I think to myself “I’ve stopped, so I need to be in First gear”. But when I put it in first, it suddenly feels like the car tripled in weight and it doesn’t want to get moving. When I first started out and this happened, I would have to basically “start over”, or in other words I try to get going but it this happens, so I clutch in again, brake down again, and then go though the “start from a full stop” process again. But this means I’m now blocking up traffic behind me.

A few times I’ve tried this: Car in front of me takes off, instead of putting it in first I put it in second, work the clutch/throttle the way I would if I was starting from a stop. In this case the car gets moving a lot smoother then it would in first, but I have to give it a lot more throttle and the revs seem very low, so I feel like this is not good for the car either.

It doesn’t seem like there’s a clear answer as to what my car “wants” in this situation. Doesn’t like first, doesn’t like second. I discussed this with my fiancé last night who has been driving stick for a few years in a few different cars. He theorized that it could be caused by the hill assist, but this seems to happen whether I’m on a hill or not.

I don’t’ know, any thoughts?

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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by theholycow » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:01 pm

Are you sure you're at a complete stop? If not, the "rolling 2nd launch" as we call it here, which you described perfectly as what you do with 2nd gear to get it smooth, is perfect. You can adjust it with a little less clutch and a little more RPM if you think your RPM is too low.

Can you describe better "feels like the car tripled in weight and it doesn’t want to get moving"?
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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by tankinbeans » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:19 pm

THC gave the answer I would have given. Welcome to the forum.
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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by DashboardSaint » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:26 pm

Can you describe better "feels like the car tripled in weight and it doesn’t want to get moving"?
That's the part that's hard to describe, it just feels like the car doesn't want to go forward, it's difficult to get it to move. Normally, say if I'm starting from a stop light, I begin to engage the clutch and the car begins to roll forward. In this case, I begin to engage the clutch and instead of rolling forward it feels like someone is applying the brakes (and no, I'm not applying the breaks).
Are you sure you're at a complete stop?
Yes, definitely at a stop, not rolling, because the car in front of me is about four inches away, so I purposely stopped the car. Now, if I stop the car and have to wait 1 or 2 seconds (or more) then I have no problem getting going in first gear. But if I'm only stopped for half a second (obviously I'm guessing at the timing just to illustrate the situation), then I run into this issue. I would rather have to stop the car for a few seconds, or just keep rolling and then get going. But there seems to be a middle ground where I have an issue.

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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by Squint » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:37 pm

To my knowledge, hill assist shouldn't be having anything to do with your situation. It only applies if you are completely stopped (and there might even be a time that you have to be stopped before it kicks in - that probably varies by car and exact technology in it). From my personal experience in my Mazda, hill assist doesn't start working until I've been stopped more than briefly. If I roll up a hill and come to a stop briefly, it doesn't kick in yet. I have to be stopped for longer than that.

Back to your question: As I also have a manual 2015 Mazda 3, I will try to recreate this situation this weekend at some point. However, I'm wondering if it might just be a small amount of throttle lag if it is electronically controlled. Moofasa, you had experience with that with your VW, right? There shouldn't be anything causing a "heavier" feeling to the car - aka you have to apply more throttle to actually get the thing moving. Especially since you have said you came to a complete stop, it should be the same if you just stopped and waited a second versus waiting 45 seconds at a stop light. Launching in first is typically the way to get moving.

I'll let you know if I can recreate it.
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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by tankinbeans » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:41 pm

That sounds like you're still moving slightly but it may be feel stopped since you executed an evasive maneuver. What's happening is engine braking, also known as compression braking. You're effectively using the engine to slow your transmission without realizing it.

Does this seeming braking come with a significant change in pitch?
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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by theholycow » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:03 pm

Squint wrote:Back to your question: As I also have a manual 2015 Mazda 3, I will try to recreate this situation this weekend at some point. However, I'm wondering if it might just be a small amount of throttle lag if it is electronically controlled. Moofasa, you had experience with that with your VW, right?
I had a little bit of it with the VW; what I had severely was rev hang, which was when the throttle didn't respond specifically after taking my foot off of the accelerator pedal. Stepping on it, I would get a split-second delay, long enough to mess up my footwork/rev-matching and my expectations of when the car would go but I was able to get used to it quickly once I realized it was there.

My wife's Isuzu had serious throttle lag. It was dangerous. You'd step on it to jump out into an opening in busy traffic and you'd just sit there for a couple seconds. That was actually similar to this reported symptom. I think there was also some kind of lag in the automatic transmission (engine note would rumble a little but still not going anywhere and RPM not really up) but I know of no technical reason why that could happen unless it was slipping.

I wonder if hill-assist could be malfunctioning, engaging when it shouldn't and not disengaging. Maybe if you stop short the system incorrectly detects the weight transfer as a hill when the loaded front springs and unloaded rear springs equalize, or maybe something's broken.
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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by DashboardSaint » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:41 pm

tankinbeans wrote:That sounds like you're still moving slightly but it may be feel stopped since you executed an evasive maneuver. What's happening is engine braking, also known as compression braking. You're effectively using the engine to slow your transmission without realizing it.

Does this seeming braking come with a significant change in pitch?
I don't think so, I'll have to pay attention to the noises the next time this happens. I do notice that when I am slowing to a stop, when i come off the gas but before I depress the clutch, there is a loud pitch humming sound (it reminds me of E.T.'s spaceship). Once I depress the clutch that stops. Is that what you are referring to?

Also, related to the brakes, this typically happens when I do not press hard on the brake. In other words, when you're coming to a stop (pretty much the same in an automatic) you press down on the brake but then at the last few seconds you kind of ease up on the brake, and that prevents the stop from being to harsh (everyone in the car jerking forward). In this case, I ease up off the brake and then it's time to get moving again, so then I'm off the brake completely. In the instance where I then try to start in first and it doesn't want to move, I depress the clutch and press down hard on the brake before starting again.
Back to your question: As I also have a manual 2015 Mazda 3, I will try to recreate this situation this weekend at some point.
If you get it definitely let me know. Keep in mind I'm a beginner so your footwork is probably better then mine.

Thanks All!

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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by Rope-Pusher » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:52 pm

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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by Squint » Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:08 pm

DashboardSaint wrote:
Back to your question: As I also have a manual 2015 Mazda 3, I will try to recreate this situation this weekend at some point.
If you get it definitely let me know. Keep in mind I'm a beginner so your footwork is probably better then mine.

Thanks All!
Heh, the good thing about learning and getting more experience is that you learn what you are doing incorrectly and can fix it. This also means you remember how to drive like a new person because you just choose to do what you learned not to do. :lol: :lol:

I probably will be able to try tomorrow, I'll see what I can find out. From memory, I've never experienced Hill Assist starting to work unless I was stopped for more than just a moment.
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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by Rope-Pusher » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:39 pm

Squint wrote:
DashboardSaint wrote:
Back to your question: As I also have a manual 2015 Mazda 3, I will try to recreate this situation this weekend at some point.
If you get it definitely let me know. Keep in mind I'm a beginner so your footwork is probably better then mine.

Thanks All!
Heh, the good thing about learning and getting more experience is that you learn what you are doing incorrectly and can fix it. This also means you remember how to drive like a new person because you just choose to do what you learned not to do. :lol: :lol:

I probably will be able to try tomorrow, I'll see what I can find out. From memory, I've never experienced Hill Assist starting to work unless I was stopped for more than just a moment.
Try coasting to a stop and see if that makes a difference - is it the negative G-loads affecting the hill-holder? Is it the foundation brakes getting stuck on? YANNO, WE HAINT RULED-OUT MUD CHIGGERS YET, RIGHT?
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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by wannabe » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:42 pm

DashboardSaint wrote:
It doesn’t seem like there’s a clear answer as to what my car “wants” in this situation. Doesn’t like first, doesn’t like second. I discussed this with my fiancé last night who has been driving stick for a few years in a few different cars. He theorized that it could be caused by the hill assist, but this seems to happen whether I’m on a hill or not.

I don’t’ know, any thoughts?
has it happened with him in the car? if so, does he have pointers on how to "fix" it, or get going better/faster?
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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by Squint » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:29 am

I attempted to test rolling to a stop and then starting again (using stop signs, primarily). I don't think I could recreate the problem you are describing perfectly, but I think I came close once? Slowed down, came to a stop, then immediately started. There was a slight delay in started, but it was basically like the engine had to go from idle (~800 RPM) to somewhere that it actually had some power (real grab starting ~1500 RPM or so). I would imagine that rev [EDIT: lag NOT hang] from an engine is similar in feeling.

I did starts using just the clutch pedal, mixing high and low throttle starts, and hill starts on a few different hills - I don't think I could duplicate it unless there is a different description you could give me. :?
Last edited by Squint on Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by theholycow » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:53 am

Squint wrote:I would imagine that rev hang from an engine is similar in feeling.
You've described lag, not rev hang. Rev hang is just the engine continuing to go VROOOOOOOOOOOM like the throttle is stuck; it only refers to RPM failing to drop, holding perfectly steady.
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Re: Slow to a stop, but then immediately keep going

Post by Squint » Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:52 pm

theholycow wrote:
Squint wrote:I would imagine that rev hang from an engine is similar in feeling.
You've described lag, not rev hang. Rev hang is just the engine continuing to go VROOOOOOOOOOOM like the throttle is stuck; it only refers to RPM failing to drop, holding perfectly steady.
Fixed, thanks. I'm having tired brain today.
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