Question on hill starts with hill assist.
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- Junior Standardshifter
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Question on hill starts with hill assist.
Hi, everyone. My new GTI has hill assist that keeps the break engaged on inclines that it detects are above a certain grade for I believe 2-ish seconds. It's supposed to be enough time to get my right foot from the brake to the throttle and go. I live in an area without many hills and I really haven't had much practice at all with any hill start. I know the theory behind it..but the few times I've tried (mostly on shopping center driveways that are pretty steep) I get frustrated because I either burn and roll back because the hill assist has worn of or burn and then stall. What am I doing wrong? Am I not giving enough gas/not engaging the clutch enough? I think I'm waiting to feel the "pull" of the car (what should I be feeling here?), but when I do that I lose focus on releasing the clutch pedal. I also get alarmed at how high I'm revving without anything happening (2500k ish?). Any tips?
- AHTOXA
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Re: Question on hill starts with hill assist.
Firstly, I suggest that you find a hill and then practice with the handbrake holding the car. I believe engaging the handbrake should cancel the hill assist program, and with the handbrake you can give yourself better control of the process.
My car has hill hold and I've gotten used to dealing with it. I basically clutch out to the friction point, where it's not the brakes that are holding the car on the incline, but the clutch itself. Then I give a little more throttle than usual and clutch out the way I normally would. For you - try the same. Hold the car with the handbrake, find the point where clutch engages and holds the car on the hill, then apply throttle while clutching out. This balance will require practice to achieve. Don't worry if it takes you a while to get it right. Then you can apply your handbrake technique to the hill hold feature.
Now, holding your car on a hill with the clutch for a prolonged time is bad for the clutch and will wear it. But, holding it for a fraction of a second will be insignificant.
My car has hill hold and I've gotten used to dealing with it. I basically clutch out to the friction point, where it's not the brakes that are holding the car on the incline, but the clutch itself. Then I give a little more throttle than usual and clutch out the way I normally would. For you - try the same. Hold the car with the handbrake, find the point where clutch engages and holds the car on the hill, then apply throttle while clutching out. This balance will require practice to achieve. Don't worry if it takes you a while to get it right. Then you can apply your handbrake technique to the hill hold feature.
Now, holding your car on a hill with the clutch for a prolonged time is bad for the clutch and will wear it. But, holding it for a fraction of a second will be insignificant.
'19 Toyota 4Runner TRD ORP
'12 Suzuki V-Strom 650
'12 Suzuki V-Strom 650
Re: Question on hill starts with hill assist.
To start, I wouldn't worry too much about a bit of an over-rev. Yes, you are going too high, but it's not like you're hitting 4000 RPM or anything. There are a few steep hills around town where I will intentionally over-rev (if the conditions are dry with good grip) to make sure I don't sell myself short and end up stalling - though I'm talking about a few hundred RPM over-rev.
Part of hill driving just involves being familiar enough with your vehicle to be able to quickly go from the brake to the gas and be confident in the movement. What you are going through happens to everyone early on driving a stick. I managed to get mine out of the way in the brief time when I lived in West Virginia which meant that I had to get used to hills VERY quickly (if you've never been, there are no flat parts - it's the opposite of your city, apparently).
To fix the situation, I would say get familiar with exactly how long the hill assist holds and be able to move faster than that, which just takes practice. If you can, find someplace where you can give it an attempt a few times, even intentionally rolling backwards a little just to become familiar with how it feels and what to expect if a mistake happens. You can set yourself up a little for a hill start by pushing in the clutch slightly earlier and have your hands in the proper places (ready to shift) so that as soon as you let off the brake you are moving. Other than that, I don't have a lot to add. Maybe His Bovine Holiness, Rope-Pusher, or someone else will have a better tip.
Part of hill driving just involves being familiar enough with your vehicle to be able to quickly go from the brake to the gas and be confident in the movement. What you are going through happens to everyone early on driving a stick. I managed to get mine out of the way in the brief time when I lived in West Virginia which meant that I had to get used to hills VERY quickly (if you've never been, there are no flat parts - it's the opposite of your city, apparently).
To fix the situation, I would say get familiar with exactly how long the hill assist holds and be able to move faster than that, which just takes practice. If you can, find someplace where you can give it an attempt a few times, even intentionally rolling backwards a little just to become familiar with how it feels and what to expect if a mistake happens. You can set yourself up a little for a hill start by pushing in the clutch slightly earlier and have your hands in the proper places (ready to shift) so that as soon as you let off the brake you are moving. Other than that, I don't have a lot to add. Maybe His Bovine Holiness, Rope-Pusher, or someone else will have a better tip.
'15 Mazda 3 iSport Hatch 6MT
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'11 Ford Fiesta Hatchback SE 5MT
'14 Giant Escape City 24MT
'97 Honda Civic EX 4AT - Retired @ 184,001 mi
For Pony!
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Re: Question on hill starts with hill assist.
I have hill assist too, its both good and bad for a newbie.
Its good that it gives you some peace of mind and provides a safety net but its bad because it can make launching more complicated.
As soon as you apply gas, the hill hold should disable. So, if you find yourself not moving while you're giving gas then its most likely because you are not coming off the clutch enough because of the fear of rolling back. Practice keeping the gas steady while coming off the clutch smoothly.
On the other hand, if you are not giving gas and car seems like its stuck and not moving forward or rolling back then that's because the brakes are still holding the car in place. Here you have two options, hold the clutch at the engagement point and wait it out (2-3 seconds) or give it a little gas which will disable the hill assist.
This just confuses new drivers because its just not intuitive. This still gets me from time to time, hopefully this explanation helps.
Its good that it gives you some peace of mind and provides a safety net but its bad because it can make launching more complicated.
As soon as you apply gas, the hill hold should disable. So, if you find yourself not moving while you're giving gas then its most likely because you are not coming off the clutch enough because of the fear of rolling back. Practice keeping the gas steady while coming off the clutch smoothly.
On the other hand, if you are not giving gas and car seems like its stuck and not moving forward or rolling back then that's because the brakes are still holding the car in place. Here you have two options, hold the clutch at the engagement point and wait it out (2-3 seconds) or give it a little gas which will disable the hill assist.
This just confuses new drivers because its just not intuitive. This still gets me from time to time, hopefully this explanation helps.
2012 VW Golf R
- theholycow
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Re: Question on hill starts with hill assist.
It sounds like you're doing just fine. Until you've gotten enough practice you're bound to do lots of burning, stalling, overrevving, etc.
What may help would be some exercises to train muscle memory for your clutch and accelerator...
Practice no-gas launches on level land, then when you're good at it practice on slight grades, then increase the grade more...all the while just practicing no-gas launches. When you start to smell clutch, give it a rest and practice more later. Use one click of the handbrake, just enough to set the "BRAKE" indicator on the dash and cancel the hill hold, if necessary. When you are good at no-gas launches, you are good at holding it on the hill long enough to calmly get on the accelerator pedal.
Also practice free-revving. Just sitting in neutral, parking brake fully set, not planning to go anywhere, practice revving it to increments of 1000RPM. When you get good at hitting your targets, practice increments of 500RPM. Keep reducing the increments, and when you get the increments small enough start to concentrate on low-RPM targets (1000, 1200, 1400, 1600). By training your right foot for controlled, fine movements, you will not only be able to go straight to the desired RPM but you will be able to add more accelerator to keep it alive during clutch engagement without overrevving.
What may help would be some exercises to train muscle memory for your clutch and accelerator...
Practice no-gas launches on level land, then when you're good at it practice on slight grades, then increase the grade more...all the while just practicing no-gas launches. When you start to smell clutch, give it a rest and practice more later. Use one click of the handbrake, just enough to set the "BRAKE" indicator on the dash and cancel the hill hold, if necessary. When you are good at no-gas launches, you are good at holding it on the hill long enough to calmly get on the accelerator pedal.
Also practice free-revving. Just sitting in neutral, parking brake fully set, not planning to go anywhere, practice revving it to increments of 1000RPM. When you get good at hitting your targets, practice increments of 500RPM. Keep reducing the increments, and when you get the increments small enough start to concentrate on low-RPM targets (1000, 1200, 1400, 1600). By training your right foot for controlled, fine movements, you will not only be able to go straight to the desired RPM but you will be able to add more accelerator to keep it alive during clutch engagement without overrevving.
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Re: Question on hill starts with hill assist.
What Cow said. That guy is simply amazing. "Something in the way he moos me,...."
But series-like, between no-gas launching to get the left foot all muscle-memoried and the rpm interval training of the right foot to develop fine motor control you'll do phine to follow the Bovine.
But series-like, between no-gas launching to get the left foot all muscle-memoried and the rpm interval training of the right foot to develop fine motor control you'll do phine to follow the Bovine.
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"
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Re: Question on hill starts with hill assist.
Thanks for the excellent advice. I'm going to find a parking lot to practice the muscle memory maneuvers ASAP. Cheers!