How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Read the FAQ and still not sure about something? Want to shift faster? Post here.
User avatar
theholycow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 16021
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
Location: Glocester, RI
Contact:

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by theholycow »

novasorc wrote:So, I should never even move my knob into first gear unless I'm already going super slow, right? That is what you implied right?
Right. (Advanced technique, to be learned later: Double clutch rev matching will make it ok to shift into 1st at speeds of 10-20mph. File that away for now.)
What would be the proper protocol from going from about 40 MPH to a red light then. Should I just put it into neutral and brake?
Some people like to downshift consecutively through each gear, always staying in a good gear to accelerate and (depending on the ECU's behavior) potentially leveraging DFCO (Deceleration Fuel Cut Off, but don't worry about it for now, it's nowhere near as dependable as people think).

Some people like to leave it in whatever gear it was already in until they get down to idle RPM, then shift to neutral and continue slowing, then just before the light turns green put it in 1st.

I like to just kick it in neutral immediately, then just before the light turns green put it in 1st.
Also, were you saying I shouldn't have been able to move my knob into first gear even with the clutch depressed? I really did not move my knob very hard at all to get it into first gear. I guess I was probably going slower than 30 MPH.
Now that right there is a car with some damn good synchros!
I feel like I am starting at a crawl right now and having trouble keeping up with traffic. I read somewhere that I could just rev the engine a bit and let go of the clutch. However, it seems that I am mistaken and this is not an advisable move. Is there any advice on how to get a faster start? I feel like I spend a while just getting it into first gear and then just shortly after I have to shift into second before I can even break 10 MPH.
I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but practice is what you need. With practice you'll be able to launch gently without any wasted time.

You'll also be able to better predict when your turn to go will be; part of driving manual is foresight, always know your next move ahead of time and know when it will be. Do you watch the cross traffic's light to see when it turns yellow? You can't always see it, but when you can you know it's time to shift into 1st and start taking up some of the dead space on your clutch.

Once you're good at it, you have these options for more aggressive launches:
- Keep RPM low but simultaneously be more aggressive with both feet.
- Higher RPM. If I'm jumping aggressively into a small opening I'll often give it 2000RPM. This is only abusive if you do it every time. You're expected to do it occasionally.
- Racing launch...very high RPM. This is abusive to do occasionally, and if you do it every time it's a fast track to repairsville.

For your concern about keeping up with traffic: Once your foot is completely off of the clutch pedal, how much of your accelerator pedal are you using? Don't be afraid to use the whole thing! With a manual transmission, heavy throttle doesn't have to mean high RPM hyper driving, especially in low gears...you're in charge of when you shift. (By comparison, an automatic will downshift and hold the lower gear all the way to redline if you go WOT.)

I like to shift to 2nd before I do any real accelerating, just using 1st to get rolling enough that I enter 2nd at idle RPM. It allows a very fast shift so my acceleration isn't interrupted for as long and is more dignified in my opinion. If that's not working for you then you can take 1st up higher and get a blast of acceleration to pull ahead before you shift into 2nd. No gear accelerates harder than 1st. Your shift will take a little longer and may be more jerky until you get sufficient practice, but there's nothing wrong with any of that except that it may bother you.
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
User avatar
novasorc
Junior Standardshifter
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:33 pm
Cars: Mazda 3 sGT

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by novasorc »

Some people like to leave it in whatever gear it was already in until they get down to idle RPM, then shift to neutral and continue slowing, then just before the light turns green put it in 1st.
Another question about wearing out my car. So, I want to make the distinction that I am talking about moving the knob into first gear position without ever letting go of the clutch until I'm fully stopped. Doing this at higher speeds is not good for my car? I've done this many times 30 MPH while stopping at stop signs. I didn't think it would cause any problems as I believed I read this to be a technique for stopping at stop signs. Could you elaborate more on what kind of wear this could cause and why?

Also, at 60 MPH, there would be resistance just putting the knob into first gear position without letting go of the clutch?
For your concern about keeping up with traffic: Once your foot is completely off of the clutch pedal, how much of your accelerator pedal are you using? Don't be afraid to use the whole thing!
Not much of the accelerator in 1st gear. I feel like 1st gear is really not giving me much acceleration at all past about 7 MPH so I have to switch to second gear. In second gear, I can really put my foot down and get some nice acceleration. However, I guess it is the time involved in getting into first gear and then shifting into second gear that makes me feel like I am crawling out of a stop.

Thanks again.
User avatar
theholycow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 16021
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
Location: Glocester, RI
Contact:

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by theholycow »

novasorc wrote:Another question about wearing out my car. So, I want to make the distinction that I am talking about moving the knob into first gear position without ever letting go of the clutch until I'm fully stopped. Doing this at higher speeds is not good for my car? I've done this many times 30 MPH while stopping at stop signs. I didn't think it would cause any problems as I believed I read this to be a technique for stopping at stop signs. Could you elaborate more on what kind of wear this could cause and why?
Yes, you should avoid moving the shift lever into the '1' position unless you are a stop or at very low speed (somewhere less than 5mph).

I don't know what kind of technique for stopping at stop signs it would be, but the only thing I'd recommend is moving the shift lever to the '1' position at around 2mph instead of waiting until you've stopped.

The wear is to the synchronizers. Synchros match the speed of the clutch with the speed of the gear you're trying to use. They are, themselves, a sort of clutch, but they are inside the gearbox itself and are operated by the shift lever. All of the gears are spinning all of the time, and the synchros connect the clutch to the chosen gear.

Let's build a scenario:
- You're riding along at 30mph.

- You're in 5th, which puts you at (I'm just guessing here) 1200RPM. If you shifted to 1st and took your foot off of the clutch pedal right now, your engine would jump up to 5000RPM (again a guess, right out of my ass), but you don't do that.

- The engine, the clutch disc, and 5th gear are all spinning at 1200RPM.

- Now you want to move the lever to 1st. You step on the clutch pedal and the clutch disc is released from the flywheel. The car's inertia turning 5th gear keeps the clutch disc spinning at 1200RPM because the car's wheels are still connected to the transmission.

- Now you move the shift lever out of 5th. The clutch disc's own inertia keeps it spinning at 1200RPM. If you wait a while it will slow down.

- Now you move the shift lever to 1st. You're still at 30mph. The wheels are still connected to the transmission, and 1st gear is already spinning at 5000RPM. The synchronizer has a mighty big job to do -- it has to spin the clutch up to 5000RPM before it can allow the shifter to reach the '1' position.
Also, at 60 MPH, there would be resistance just putting the knob into first gear position without letting go of the clutch?
Yes, although it sounds like your car is equipped with extremely good synchros that might make it less noticeable and less extreme than it would be in another car.
For your concern about keeping up with traffic: Once your foot is completely off of the clutch pedal, how much of your accelerator pedal are you using? Don't be afraid to use the whole thing!
Not much of the accelerator in 1st gear. I feel like 1st gear is really not giving me much acceleration at all past about 7 MPH
Don't be shy, goose it! Because 1st is inefficient and requires high RPM, you have to use more of the accelerator to get more acceleration out of 1st...but when you use all of it and take it up to higher RPM it will accelerate harder than any other gear, because it has more mechanical advantage (more leverage).
so I have to switch to second gear. In second gear, I can really put my foot down and get some nice acceleration. However, I guess it is the time involved in getting into first gear and then shifting into second gear that makes me feel like I am crawling out of a stop.
With practice you will improve. That's a promise. There's a lot of dead space in the clutch pedal's travel, but right now you need to go very slowly through the entire range. With practice you'll go straight to where friction starts to kick in, slow down for an inch, and then dump it the rest of the way...but right now if you try to do that you'll stall and/or buck a lot.

Since you're shifting at 7mph, don't be afraid to flick the shift lever into 2nd very quickly, especially since you probably have awesome synchros.

Here's something else that will improve with practice; you'll overlap your clutch foot and shifter hand motions so you begin moving the shift lever just as the clutch pedal reaches the floor, and then just as the shift lever reaches the '1' position your clutch foot will already be on the move. New manual drivers tend to compartmentalize more, completing one action and pausing before beginning the next action. When I had a modern car with good synchros my shifts were done at low RPM and were lightning fast; my left foot stomped
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
User avatar
novasorc
Junior Standardshifter
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:33 pm
Cars: Mazda 3 sGT

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by novasorc »

theholycow wrote:Here's something else that will improve with practice; you'll overlap your clutch foot and shifter hand motions so you begin moving the shift lever just as the clutch pedal reaches the floor, and then just as the shift lever reaches the '1' position your clutch foot will already be on the move. New manual drivers tend to compartmentalize more, completing one action and pausing before beginning the next action. When I had a modern car with good synchros my shifts were done at low RPM and were lightning fast; my left foot stomped
I've already been trying to do this, naturally. I've just noticed today that I might be moving the knob too much before the clutch is all the way down. Would this cause wear to the transmission, or just some extra wear on the clutch?

Also, does shifting before the clutch is all the way pressed down offer more resistance on the knob? I think that's why I felt my knob movement was a little bit off.

Thanks.
IMBoring25
Moderator
Posts: 3418
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:01 pm
Location: OK, USA

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by IMBoring25 »

The extra wear in that instance would be to transmission and shifter components. The clutch isn't really affected.

Yes, except in the special case that the throttle is in the perfect spot for the gear and speed, there will be more resistance to shifter movement if you don't have the clutch fully disengaged. As I said in my first response, take care to have the clutch all the way down when you're moving the shifter. The transmission and shifter will thank you.
User avatar
novasorc
Junior Standardshifter
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:33 pm
Cars: Mazda 3 sGT

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by novasorc »

Thank you everyone for all the help. It's been very helpful. Just one last question for now.

Is it bad to shift the gears without the clutch when the engine isn't on? I'm not too sure about this one.
User avatar
theholycow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 16021
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
Location: Glocester, RI
Contact:

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by theholycow »

With the engine off it is acceptable to shift gears without touching the clutch pedal, as long as the car is held in place by the parking brake (or a curb or something). If the weight of the car is resting on the gears and engine, you will find it difficult to move the shifter and you should not force it.
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
User avatar
Squint
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3390
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: KY

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by Squint »

theholycow wrote:With the engine off it is acceptable to shift gears without touching the clutch pedal, as long as the car is held in place by the parking brake (or a curb or something). If the weight of the car is resting on the gears and engine, you will find it difficult to move the shifter and you should not force it.
Moofasa with the complete take-over of the thread. Nice work, your Bovine Holiness. :D
'15 Mazda 3 iSport Hatch 6MT
'11 Ford Fiesta Hatchback SE 5MT
'14 Giant Escape City 24MT
'97 Honda Civic EX 4AT - Retired @ 184,001 mi

For Pony!
User avatar
six
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 4674
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:45 pm
Cars: 2015 Chevrolet SS 6MT
Location: California, U.S.

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by six »

novasorc wrote:Another question about wearing out my car. So, I want to make the distinction that I am talking about moving the knob into first gear position without ever letting go of the clutch until I'm fully stopped. Doing this at higher speeds is not good for my car? I've done this many times 30 MPH while stopping at stop signs. I didn't think it would cause any problems as I believed I read this to be a technique for stopping at stop signs. Could you elaborate more on what kind of wear this could cause and why?

Also, at 60 MPH, there would be resistance just putting the knob into first gear position without letting go of the clutch?
The question about the wear this causes is answered, but I'm chiming in on the technique. For me personally, I pretty much never shift into 1st gear if I'm moving, unless I'm at a crawl, and by crawl, I mean literally the speed of a baby's crawl. There is almost no need to ever do so, 2nd gear usually does what I need. For stop signs, what I do is I just brake while in whatever gear I'm in, 4th, 5th, doesn't matter. Once I approach idle RPM speed (about 1000RPM), I shift to neutral for the rest of stop. Once I'm stopped, I put the shift lever into 1st, then launch when appropriate. If you're in California, like me, you slow to a crawl, shift into 2nd, then roll through the stop sign lol =)

Same applies if you're approaching a red light. I just slow down in whatever gear I'm in until I reach idle RPM, then shift to neutral. If the light turns green before you're stopped, slip the shifter into 2nd gear, and go on your merry way. I don't believe there is a need in normal traffic to be aggresive enough for you to be ready in first gear before you're stopped. Also, another situation that you'll encounter, making a right turn at an intersection. Again, same applies, slow down in whatever gear you're in, and once you're at the appropriate speed for the turn, shift into 3rd, then turn. If you like, you can downshift sequentially through the gears while you're slowing down. No harm in doing that, and it's kind of fun too. You're choice. But there is almost never a need to downshift into 1st while you're moving.
Image
2015 Heron White Chevrolet SS Sedan 6MT
daleadbull
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:18 pm
Cars: VW Golf R

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by daleadbull »

I think everyone has already addressed all your questions wonderfully, especially moofasa.

As a new manual driver, I would say the first thing it sounds like you should do is learn the theory behind the manual transmission.

This way you know what to do and what not to do, this will also help your get into the right habits. For now, I wouldn't even worry about downshifting. When you are coming to a stop or slowing down considerably then just put the transmission into neutral and brake. If you need to get moving again before coming to a complete stop, then put it in 2nd. You shouldn't be shifting into 1st until you are practically stopped.

Listen to the transmission, don't make it do things that it doesn't want to do. If you feel resistance, there is a good reason for that. In general, don't force things just let it come to you.
2012 VW Golf R
User avatar
novasorc
Junior Standardshifter
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:33 pm
Cars: Mazda 3 sGT

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by novasorc »

New question guys, about the amount of resistance. How much resistance is too much? Sometimes the shifter goes in very easily and I feel satisfied, but sometimes I feel some resistance to it and it takes a bit more effort to push in. I'm not sure if this is a sign I'm doing something wrong or the resistance can just be variable depending on road conditions like potholes and whatnot. Are there any reasons why? This will happen on very basic shifts that I don't think I'm messing up, such as pressing the clutch all the way in and then moving the knob from 1st gear to 2nd gear or 2nd to 3rd. I also feel resistance sometimes when I'm just starting my car and moving the knob into reverse. Also, do I need to move the shifter to neutral and re-clutch before I change from a forward gear into a reverse gear? I noticed that it's smoother when I do that.

Thanks again for the help.
User avatar
theholycow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 16021
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
Location: Glocester, RI
Contact:

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by theholycow »

That resistance is the synchronizers doing their job, pushing back against you until they complete their task of synchronizing. It's exactly the sort of thing I expected you to notice about shifting into first gear at 30mph. The more resistance you encounter, the more work the synchro is trying to do.

Additionally, cold weather can make the oil in the gearbox more viscous, which can increase the resistance that you feel until the gearbox has warmed up.

The best way to shift into reverse is to come to a complete stop and then shift into any convenient forward gear (keeping the clutch pedal floored) before proceeding to reverse. The forward gear has a good synchro that will stop the clutch from spinning. Modern cars have synchros on reverse, but it may not be as good as the ones on forward gears. (Older cars have unsynchronized reverse gears, if you don't stop the clutch before shifting into reverse then those cars will grind.)
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
User avatar
novasorc
Junior Standardshifter
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:33 pm
Cars: Mazda 3 sGT

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by novasorc »

theholycow wrote:That resistance is the synchronizers doing their job, pushing back against you until they complete their task of synchronizing. It's exactly the sort of thing I expected you to notice about shifting into first gear at 30mph. The more resistance you encounter, the more work the synchro is trying to do.

Additionally, cold weather can make the oil in the gearbox more viscous, which can increase the resistance that you feel until the gearbox has warmed up.

The best way to shift into reverse is to come to a complete stop and then shift into any convenient forward gear (keeping the clutch pedal floored) before proceeding to reverse. The forward gear has a good synchro that will stop the clutch from spinning. Modern cars have synchros on reverse, but it may not be as good as the ones on forward gears. (Older cars have unsynchronized reverse gears, if you don't stop the clutch before shifting into reverse then those cars will grind.)
So, I might notice some synchro resistance even if I'm shifting at approximately the right speed? My Mazda actually has an indicator that suggests exactly when to shift up a gear, so I don't think I could be too off.

Thanks.
daleadbull
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:18 pm
Cars: VW Golf R

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by daleadbull »

If you feel synchro resistance when shifting normally, it might also be that you are shifting too fast for the synchro. By too fast, I mean physically moving the shifter too fast. Some cars don't like that.

Feeling some resistance when trying to put it in 1st or reverse is normal.
2012 VW Golf R
User avatar
RITmusic2k
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 2078
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:32 pm
Cars: 2004 BMW 330i ZHP
Location: Anaheim, CA
Contact:

Re: How much damage do these beginner mistakes cause?

Post by RITmusic2k »

novasorc wrote:So, I might notice some synchro resistance even if I'm shifting at approximately the right speed? My Mazda actually has an indicator that suggests exactly when to shift up a gear, so I don't think I could be too off.
FYI, that indicator is only looking to see if you're cruising at an inefficient gear - it only lights up to suggest that you upshift in order to maximize your fuel economy. But that indicator has nothing to do with the process of shifting... it's telling you nothing about the interactions between the components of the transmission. After all, it's lighting up before you interact with any of the controls.

As daleadbull said above, it's very beneficial to gain an understanding of how all the parts work together. People talk about shifting at the right speed, but they're being ambiguous about what speed they're referring to... and in the case of a manual transmission vehicle, there are *three* speeds to consider: (1) engine rpms, (2) "vehicle speed" or "road speed", and (3) transmission rpms. We have telemetry that tells us exactly what our road speed and our engine speed are, but nothing that directly indicates what our transmission rpms are. Transmission rpms don't get their own gauge on in the instrument cluster because for the most part they are directly coupled with the engine speed... but there are circumstances (specifically, when the clutch pedal is depressed) where it has its own speed independent of the others.

Here's the bird's eye view of the system:

The transmission is composed of two shafts - the 'input' shaft or 'layshaft', which is connected to the engine through the clutch and flywheel, and the 'output' shaft, which is permanently connected to the drive wheels, and effectively, the road. Between these two shafts are all the gears that make up the number of 'speeds' your transmission has. The gears of the input shaft and output shaft are always meshed together, but the layshaft itself (the 'axle' around which its gears are spinning) can be decoupled from the gears rotating around it. Your gearshifter is the mechanism that locks one particular gear at a time to the layshaft in order to transmit power from the engine to the wheels.

As I said before, the output shaft is always permanently connected to the drive wheels. If the car is sitting still, the output shaft is sitting still. If the car is rolling, the output shaft is turning at a certain speed. If the car is rolling twice as fast, the output shaft is turning twice as fast.

The input shaft is connected to the engine, as long as the clutch is engaged (clutch pedal released). With the clutch engaged, as above, if the engine is turning at a certain speed, then the input shaft is turning at a certain speed. If the speed of the engine rises, the speed of the layshaft increases accordingly. BUT, if you press the clutch pedal in, the engine speed and the input shaft speed are no longer linked. You could drop the engine speed to idle or you could redline it, but you're no longer influencing the speed of the input shaft. What the input shaft is actually doing at this time depends entirely on whether you're in a selected gear or in neutral.

To back up a step, you should see at this point that the interaction between the input and output shafts is where the magic happens. It's how we translate engine rotation into vehicle motion. These two halves need to be able to disengage from each other because we need to be able to change our gear ratios to match the work required of our engines at any given time. The art of shifting is all about making this engagement/disengagement as smooth as possible, which for all intents and purposes is another way of saying we need the input shaft and output shaft to be turning at the same speed while we're shifting into or out of a gear.

And shifting is really two parts: (1) shifting out of the current gear, and then (2) shifting into the target gear. I'll follow up with a part 2, but I wanted to get this on the board before I have to run away from my computer...
Post Reply