What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

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Shadow
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by Shadow »

daleadbull wrote:
Shadow, have you noticed this with your A5 or do you just simply follow the computer's suggestion for fuel economy (which is basically short shifting).
Honestly, I don't drive for fuel economy. Ever. I drive my car to enjoy it and I just can't bring myself to be concerned with maximizing fuel economy. That said, I never pay attention to the shift suggestion. In fact, I normally keep it turned off.

BTW, keep in mind that the A5/A4 2.0T reaches max torque at a lower RPM than your car. So it's quite easy to zip around short shifting every time and getting up to speed quite quickly without any drama or fuss.
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by Shadow »

zenfiz6 wrote: D'oh! I'm stoooopid. X-P
The fizix major forgot that one must multiply torque output by the gear ratio to get final torque.

So, Mr. Allpar says (I'm paraphrasing):
"It is left as an exercise for the reader to prove that the force due to torque at the wheels is equal to the engine power divided by the velocity."

Because I've had to survive over a dozen years of such statements thrown at me, if I don't prove it, I'll die.

[fizix lecture]
In the end, Newton's second law tells us that accelerations are caused by forces: F=ma. If we assume the mass is constant for this problem, then acceleration is just some fraction of the available force.

Now, Torque (T) is a force (F) times a lever arm (R). Think of a wrench. If you can't turn the nut with the length wrench you have, what do you do? You get a cheater bar and increase the lever arm, thus increasing torque.

So the force available at the wheels is the torque available at the wheels divided by the radius of the wheels:
F = T_w/R

But the torque available at the wheels is the torque output by the engine times the gear ratio.
I'll use a little "r" for that:
T_w = T_e*r

Finally, the gear ratio is just the engine RPMs (w_e) divided by the wheel RPMs (w_w). [Why "w"? Because "R" is taken and angular velocity is often given the greek letter "omega," which looks like a "w."]

So, with ALL that said, we get that the force delivered to the car is
F = T_e*w_e/(w_w*R)

One last step: the velocity of the car is the angular velocity of the wheels (w_w) times the radius of the wheels, so the denominator can be reduced to "v."

F = T_e*w_e/v

Finally, we know that power (P) is torque (T_e) times angular velocity (w_e), so we return to
F = P/v
which is what we wanted to prove. Or, as we say in latin: "Quit, Enough Done."
(I've left constants out of the mix, but they're just there to convert metric values to english values and we all know what happened to the Mars probe that NASA lost due to *that* fiasco....)
[/fizix lecture]

So we should be able to simply use the power curve of the engine to determine acceleration and, therefore, should be able to pick the shift point to maintain that acceleration. But it seems to require looking at the power curve somewhat carefully. The acceleration is proportional to the power divided by the velocity. But that means that if the velocity increases, but the power doesn't increase in proportion to velocity, then the acceleration will suffer.

Looking at my vehicle's power curve, it appears that it is pretty linear up to about 4300 RPM. This tells me that---for acceleration---I want to shift at about 4300 RPM.

It'd be interesting to look at other curves and see where people shift.

Also, this *still* doesn't explain why 2000RPM doesn't *feel* as nice as 3k. :-p

Homework will be due one week from today. :D
That's all fine and dandy. I like talking numbers (and theory) as much as anyone, but there's a far easier way to figure this all out. Just go out on the open road and open 'er up as you run 'er through the gears. Take note where you feel the acceleration start to drop off (hint: it will be somewhere approaching 6000 RPM). If you want to maximize acceleration, you should shift somewhere just past 6000 RPM.

Now this applies to our engines, but obviously not all engines. By far, most cars have engines that need to be shifted right at redline to achieve max acceleration. Car and Driver had an excellent tech article on this a while back. In a nutshell, they basically found that only engines that tend to develop excellent low-end torque (like our small turbo engines or some naturally aspirated V8 engines) don't need to be shifted at redline for the best performance. But honestly, these days even those naturally aspirated V8 engines tend to benefit from high RPMs because they all have some sort of variable valve timing. Look at the 5.0 Mustang engine for example. The older one found in the late 80s didn't make good power near redline. The new one (Coyote engine) continues to pull hard right up to redline, thanks to variable valve timing.
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by ClutchFork »

My shift points for maximum acceleration on my Ranger 2.3L that I posted two days ago are wrong. I messed up those calculations. Tonight I went through it again and found that I need to run it out to 6000 rpm in each gear (1,2, and 3). Actually, the data show that if the rev limiter didn't come in aroun 6200 I could benefit from running first out to maybe 7000. So first, here is the data for my engine:
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The calculations:
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I didn't bother to multiply out through the whole drive train since the rear end and tire size are constants, so I only multiplied the torque by the transmission gear ratio. Also I assumed the drop in RPM on shifting is the same as the ratio of the two gears (percent figures to left). I show where the next gear picks it up by the curved lines, for example I leave 1st at 6000 rpm and 398 torque (at the tail of the tranny) and pick up 2nd at 3500 rpm and 328 torque. The whole idea is to stay in the lower gear as long as it is putting out more torque multiplied by the gearbox than will be available when you pick up the next gear.

In real life, once you disengage the clutch you lose some momentum, so it may be about 500 more rpm drop, but in my case it would not matter anyway. I still could not do better by shifting earlier. The bottom line remains the same: shift at 6000. My road experience also confirms that it pulls very nicely to 6000 and it makes no sense to shift earlier if I want to move out as fast as possible.
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by daleadbull »

Shadow wrote:Honestly, I don't drive for fuel economy. Ever. I drive my car to enjoy it and I just can't bring myself to be concerned with maximizing fuel economy. That said, I never pay attention to the shift suggestion. In fact, I normally keep it turned off.

BTW, keep in mind that the A5/A4 2.0T reaches max torque at a lower RPM than your car. So it's quite easy to zip around short shifting every time and getting up to speed quite quickly without any drama or fuss.
Yep, I'm aware. Your turbos spool up about 500-1000 rpm before mine if I'm not mistaken and my power band is shifted to the right a little compared to yours but still the same statement applies. Getting up to speed quicker using the power band is more fuel efficient than short shifting and gradually getting up to speed imo.

I used to look at the average fuel economy after every trip, it became like a game almost. I'm definitely trying to break that habit tho. Still can't resist but take a look sometimes. lol
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by theholycow »

daleadbull wrote:I used to look at the average fuel economy after every trip, it became like a game almost. I'm definitely trying to break that habit tho. Still can't resist but take a look sometimes. lol
I'm curious, why would you try to break that habit? I can understand other habits naturally pushing it away, but I'm missing the reason to decide against it.
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by daleadbull »

theholycow wrote:I'm curious, why would you try to break that habit? I can understand other habits naturally pushing it away, but I'm missing the reason to decide against it.
I feel like constantly checking the fuel economy takes the fun out of driving the car imo. Its a real bummer when you flog the car and really enjoy it then you get home and check the fuel economy. Its the last thing on your mind when you get out of the car, just leaves a bad taste.

No matter how I drive, I end up getting the same amount of miles out of a tank anyway so I just want to enjoy driving the car rather than obsess about the fuel economy. It's a hard habit to break tho.
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by rei »

I tend to shift 'when it feels right' - which is more or less at 15-20 from first to second, 40-45 to third, 60-65 to fourth, and 85 to fifth. I might shift a bit 'earlier' if I know I've got clear sailing ahead and can take advantage of the lower RPM for fuel economy, but as most of my power is at the high RPMs its rarely the case that I'd be doing so.

(all units in those wacky metric kilometres instead of miles)


When I'm "booking it" I shift out of third around 75 and out of fourth around 95.
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by ClutchFork »

I never drive for fuel economy and yet get consistently a minimum of 25 mpg out of the 2001 Ranger 2.3L. In my old truck, a 1995 F150 4.9L, I consistently got close to 14 mpg on the low side. That truck was supposed to get 17 mpg and if I ever drove it economically it might, but never wanted to restrain myself even for one tank of gas to check it out.
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by zenfiz6 »

Shadow wrote:
zenfiz6 wrote:
<one of my standard fizix analyses>
That's all fine and dandy. I like talking numbers (and theory) as much as anyone, but there's a far easier way to figure this all out. Just go out on the open road and open 'er up as you run 'er through the gears. Take note where you feel the acceleration start to drop off (hint: it will be somewhere approaching 6000 RPM). If you want to maximize acceleration, you should shift somewhere just past 6000 RPM.
Oh, don't get me wrong: I'm into both theory and experiment (does that make me bi?) But if I'm going to experiment, I'm getting my GF to sit in the passenger seat with an accelerometer.

And if you're going to experiment, then you really need a prediction behind you so you know what to look for.

I'm willing to bet the g's in the A4 taper off closer to 5000 RPM, though.

I've always wanted to get my accelerometer app going on an airplane during take-off. How bad could that possibly be in airplane mode? I mean, it's not like the steward(ess) is walking the aisle during take-off. ;-)
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by bk7794 »

I usually check the MPG after getting gas. If I see it's substantially lower than usual I run through a mental checklist, if I did any WOT runs, any crappy traffic, etc. If it was all highway I assume it's either bad gas or I panic and think something is wrong with my car lol. I'd use it more for a tool than something to flog enjoyment.
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by theholycow »

rei wrote:I tend to shift 'when it feels right' - which is more or less at 15-20 from first to second, 40-45 to third, 60-65 to fourth, and 85 to fifth. I might shift a bit 'earlier' if I know I've got clear sailing ahead and can take advantage of the lower RPM for fuel economy, but as most of my power is at the high RPMs its rarely the case that I'd be doing so.
At first I was like "holy vroom!"
(all units in those wacky metric kilometres instead of miles)
But then I "oh"'d. :D
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by zenfiz6 »

rei wrote:I tend to shift 'when it feels right' - which is more or less at 15-20 from first to second, 40-45 to third, 60-65 to fourth, and 85 to fifth. I might shift a bit 'earlier' if I know I've got clear sailing ahead and can take advantage of the lower RPM for fuel economy, but as most of my power is at the high RPMs its rarely the case that I'd be doing so.

(all units in those wacky metric kilometres instead of miles)


When I'm "booking it" I shift out of third around 75 and out of fourth around 95.
So, I gotta ask: Is your gear ratio set up so that, at 2500 RPM you're:

20kph @ 1st
40kph @ 2nd
60kph @ 3rd
80kph @ 4th
100kph @ 5th?

I'm just curious if this is a standard pattern. I had that on my '87 Acura Legend and it's the same for my 2011 Audi A4.

(for the US/UK adherents, that'd be 2000 RPM:

10 MPH @ 1st
20 MPH @ 2nd
30 MPH @ 3rd
40 MPH @ 4th
50 MPH @ 5th)
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by ClutchFork »

zenfiz6 wrote:
(for the US/UK adherents, that'd be 2000 RPM:

10 MPH @ 1st
20 MPH @ 2nd
30 MPH @ 3rd
40 MPH @ 4th
50 MPH @ 5th)
Um, why does RPM change from metric to english? Is it that you actually are using different speeds in the English translation so that you have even numbers and so that drops the RPMs?
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

Post by zenfiz6 »

InlinePaul wrote:
zenfiz6 wrote:
(for the US/UK adherents, that'd be 2000 RPM:

10 MPH @ 1st
20 MPH @ 2nd
30 MPH @ 3rd
40 MPH @ 4th
50 MPH @ 5th)
Um, why does RPM change from metric to english? Is it that you actually are using different speeds in the English translation so that you have even numbers and so that drops the RPMs?
Yes: 10 MPH = 16 kph, 30 MPH = 48 kph, etc. Most people like to use numbers that end in "0" or "5" and maintain a pattern (So, for MPH, you go up by 10s at 2000RPM. For km/hr, you go up by 20s at 2500RPMs [or, I suppose, you can go up by 10s at 1250 RPM])

Anyway, this is what I've found for two manuals I've driven which are 25 years apart in age and probably 15k miles apart in origin. I was just wondering if this was common.
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Re: What's Your Shifting Algorithm?

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