Perfectly smooth upshifts-trick with disengaging the clutch

[Benquick]

^Along those lines, if you get good at knowing when you hit neutral throttle you can shift out of gear without touching the clutch pedal. Looking at it the other way, you can practice doing that to get good at knowing neutral throttle. I do it all the time. You don't necessarily need to give it any gas as long as your timing is perfect.

Note that you should still use the clutch pedal to shift out of neutral into the next gear (unless you are perfect at double clutching, in which case you aren't in this thread looking for advice, but even then it's hard to know for sure on a synchronized transmission).

@theholycow
Interesting! Could you give us some advice about practicing - as you do - to get good at knowing the zone of neutral throttle/neutral load on the driveline? I'm sure it will be very useful for everyone of us.
Thanks

[theholycow]

@theholycow
Interesting! Could you give us some advice about practicing - as you do - to get good at knowing the zone of neutral throttle/neutral load on the driveline? I'm sure it will be very useful for everyone of us.
Thanks

It happens just barely a moment after you take your foot off of the accelerator pedal, unless you have rev hang or an unresponsive drive-by-wire throttle. Even the unpleasant drive-by-wire throttle in my 2008 VW didn't make it take any longer.

To try it, gently push the shifter towards neutral when you think it might be the right time.

• If it falls readily into neutral you did it perfectly.
• If you're very close but imperfect it may feel notchy as it moves. This probably puts some wear on the transmission (as mentioned in bk7794's post)
• If you're somewhat close it may move halfway and get stuck there and start shaking. This seems bad, but I'm not sure exactly how bad. Be prepared to stomp the clutch pedal very quickly if it happens. Slam the clutch pedal to the floor and push the shifter to neutral.
• If it didn't move any more than it would another time (for example, while accelerating) then you weren't even close.

[daleadbull]

@theholycow
Interesting! Could you give us some advice about practicing - as you do - to get good at knowing the zone of neutral throttle/neutral load on the driveline? I'm sure it will be very useful for everyone of us.
Thanks

It happens just barely a moment after you take your foot off of the accelerator pedal, unless you have rev hang or an unresponsive drive-by-wire throttle. Even the unpleasant drive-by-wire throttle in my 2008 VW didn't make it take any longer.

To try it, gently push the shifter towards neutral when you think it might be the right time.

• If it falls readily into neutral you did it perfectly.
• If you're very close but imperfect it may feel notchy as it moves. This probably puts some wear on the transmission (as mentioned in bk7794's post)
• If you're somewhat close it may move halfway and get stuck there and start shaking. This seems bad, but I'm not sure exactly how bad. Be prepared to stomp the clutch pedal very quickly if it happens. Slam the clutch pedal to the floor and push the shifter to neutral.
• If it didn't move any more than it would another time (for example, while accelerating) then you weren't even close.

I think this is why when trying to shift aggressively, people usually move the shifter while pushing the clutch down. So in reality you are going into neural while the clutch is still engaged/partially-engaged and move into the next gear when the clutch is fully disengaged.

[RITmusic2k]

I'll chime in -

It's going to be different with every car. My Saabs were very accepting of clutchless shifts (both out of and into gear), but the ZHP hangs onto the shifter for dear life...

That being said, the point of neutral throttle for any vehicle speed is necessarily going to fall somewhere between 'steady speed' and 'engine braking'. It is NOT the point at which you're driving at a steady speed, though, because you're applying enough extra throttle to combat frictional losses from the driveline, wind resistance, etc. A car in neutral on level ground will always be slowing gradually.

I think the best way to feel it out is to learn the amount of engine braking your car provides in each gear. Your car will always slow at the same rate from the same starting speed in neutral, but when you're in gear and off the throttle it will engine brake more and more aggressively the lower the gear you're in. So, if you know how quickly you'd be coasting down from a certain speed, all you have to do is apply enough throttle so that you're slowing at that same rate while in gear, and that puts you pretty close to the neutral throttle position.



All the above, however, is more about the concept of finding neutral throttle. In practice, you're never going to be holding your throttle steady while you try to match deceleration rates. More likely, is that you'll be accelerating in one particular gear, then stepping off the gas as you prepare to shift and pulling the lever out after some short delay, aiming for the neutral throttle point as you're passing through it on the transition between 'accelerating' and 'engine braking'. The only way to find this out is through experimentation. In some cars, you can yank on the gearshift the instant you back off the gas; in others you might have to wait half a beat. But the more you try it, the more your subconscious is going to learn what works and what doesn't, and eventually you'll get good at it without really knowing how to measure what exactly you're doing.

[theholycow]

I think this is why when trying to shift aggressively, people usually move the shifter while pushing the clutch down. So in reality you are going into neural while the clutch is still engaged/partially-engaged and move into the next gear when the clutch is fully disengaged.

Maybe, but I suspect that when shifting aggressively nobody will wait that long. What's really happening is just moving the shifter ASAP and if it hits the wall then it'll only be a moment before the clutch gets to where it allows the shifter to resume moving.

[Benquick]

I'll chime in -

It's going to be different with every car. My Saabs were very accepting of clutchless shifts (both out of and into gear), but the ZHP hangs onto the shifter for dear life...

That being said, the point of neutral throttle for any vehicle speed is necessarily going to fall somewhere between 'steady speed' and 'engine braking'. It is NOT the point at which you're driving at a steady speed, though, because you're applying enough extra throttle to combat frictional losses from the driveline, wind resistance, etc. A car in neutral on level ground will always be slowing gradually.

I think the best way to feel it out is to learn the amount of engine braking your car provides in each gear. Your car will always slow at the same rate from the same starting speed in neutral, but when you're in gear and off the throttle it will engine brake more and more aggressively the lower the gear you're in. So, if you know how quickly you'd be coasting down from a certain speed, all you have to do is apply enough throttle so that you're slowing at that same rate while in gear, and that puts you pretty close to the neutral throttle position.

All the above, however, is more about the concept of finding neutral throttle. In practice, you're never going to be holding your throttle steady while you try to match deceleration rates. More likely, is that you'll be accelerating in one particular gear, then stepping off the gas as you prepare to shift and pulling the lever out after some short delay, aiming for the neutral throttle point as you're passing through it on the transition between 'accelerating' and 'engine braking'. The only way to find this out is through experimentation. In some cars, you can yank on the gearshift the instant you back off the gas; in others you might have to wait half a beat. But the more you try it, the more your subconscious is going to learn what works and what doesn't, and eventually you'll get good at it without really knowing how to measure what exactly you're doing.

Fantastic explanation and analysis!

[Benquick]

@theholycow
Interesting! Could you give us some advice about practicing - as you do - to get good at knowing the zone of neutral throttle/neutral load on the driveline? I'm sure it will be very useful for everyone of us.
Thanks

It happens just barely a moment after you take your foot off of the accelerator pedal, unless you have rev hang or an unresponsive drive-by-wire throttle. Even the unpleasant drive-by-wire throttle in my 2008 VW didn't make it take any longer.

To try it, gently push the shifter towards neutral when you think it might be the right time.

• If it falls readily into neutral you did it perfectly.
• If you're very close but imperfect it may feel notchy as it moves. This probably puts some wear on the transmission (as mentioned in bk7794's post)
• If you're somewhat close it may move halfway and get stuck there and start shaking. This seems bad, but I'm not sure exactly how bad. Be prepared to stomp the clutch pedal very quickly if it happens. Slam the clutch pedal to the floor and push the shifter to neutral.
• If it didn't move any more than it would another time (for example, while accelerating) then you weren't even close.

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate very much.
I was also wondering if there is a possibility to "feel" the neutral-load point focusing on engine's "vibrations": when you hit the neutral-load point, you're supposed to feel some particular feedback from the car, but, if so, you'd need a deep deep sensibility.... I'll try to experiment a bit

[RITmusic2k]

Probably not from the engine itself, but as theholycow's reply indicates, you'll be able to detect it through the gearshift lever itself.

DISCLAIMER: It's considered bad-practice to keep your hand on the stick while driving - that shifter needs to be free to move around with the transmission as you load and unload it during normal driving. The following technique is just to illustrate what you're looking for, but should not be used all the time

If you're driving along in gear, you can apply very slight pressure to the shift knob (pushing it toward 'neutral'), and it'll usually feel 'bound up' and stuck in the gate. But at the point of neutral throttle, it'll just release and slip right out. This is with the clutch engaged, mind you. You can repeat this action over and over again and eventually see just what kind of throttle application gets you to that point where the shifter slips out. That's what you want to develop with your muscle memory so when you start shifting, you'll find that point just as you grab the stick to change gears.