Can you hold the gas while downshift revmatching?

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Shadow
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Re: Can you hold hold gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by Shadow » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:43 pm

daleadbull wrote:
Shadow wrote:If your RPMs drop too fast while upshifting, you're shifting too slow. You really shouldn't have to use any throttle at all when shifting into the next higher gear. And if you have a car with rev hang (and a lot of new cars have it!), then you should have even less of a problem with the RPM falling too fast. Try speeding your shifting up a bit and you'll probably find it much more enjoyable.
I don't think that's always the case. I believe that sometimes the revs can drop extremely quickly. For example, when my engine is cold my revs drop like a ton of bricks. So in order to shift smoothly at lower rpms I need to be really quick with engaging the next gear with the clutch while give a tiny amount of gas during the shift. In my case, this only happens for the first few minutes after a cold start. So who knows, maybe in his car the revs drop that fast all the time.

There's not a car on earth that can drop the RPMs faster than I can shift into the next higher gear. Even with a close-ratio transmission, where the drop in RPM isn't much, I can still always finish my shift as the RPMs drop into the perfect spot. In fact, if you are capable of physically shifting quick enough, you should be able to complete your shift when the RPMs haven't yet fallen low enough to smoothly engage the next gear. Yes, even on a cold engine and even without any rev hang. This is what guys complain about all the time when they have a car that rev hangs badly.
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Re: Can you hold hold gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by theholycow » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:44 am

Transvestor wrote:Do I need to remove my foot off the throttle completely before engaging the clutch or can I slowly release the throttle and engage the clutch simultaneously(as you described)?
Just to clarify, you are using "engage" correctly, right? It is common that people have it backwards, thinking they're "engaging" the clutch when they floor the clutch pedal, but that is disengaging the clutch (at most, they are engaging their foot to the clutch pedal). (Tangent: "release" is commonly used backwrads on this site. The clutch release system releases the clutch when you floor the clutch pedal, but we use the phrase "clutch release" to talk about releasing the clutch pedal.)

Anyway, there have been various discussions of what I've described as a "steady throttle" rev-match, a label which I realize I've confusingly applied to two distinctly different techniques, both of which are harmless if done right (and of course, if you botch ANY technique severely enough you can wear or even break stuff):

Technique 1: Cruising along in gear at steady speed, right foot stays perfectly still, only clutch pedal and shifter move. This often works very nicely for a one-gear downshift, providing the perfect rev-match. Here, "steady throttle" refers to the throttle staying steady from beginning to end.

Technique 2: Foot off accelerator, clutch pedal down, foot on accelerator and holding it steady, shift, clutch pedal up. In this case "steady throttle" refers merely to a replacement for the blip.

Does anyone know if there are actual names for either or both techniques? If not, we probably ought to name them.

Anyway, I used to practice technique 1 often, though not as much anymore because it doesn't quite fit with the double-clutching I do on most downshifts these days. I wish I would use technique 2 but it wasn't compatible with my previous car's drive-by-wire throttle and I can't break the blip habit. I feel like some kid showing off when I blip and it goes "vroom!"; technique 2 seems more classy to me.
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Re: Can you hold hold gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by Squint » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:52 pm

theholycow wrote:Technique 2: Foot off accelerator, clutch pedal down, foot on accelerator and holding it steady, shift, clutch pedal up. In this case "steady throttle" refers merely to a replacement for the blip.
...
I feel like some kid showing off when I blip and it goes "vroom!"; technique 2 seems more classy to me.
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Re: Can you hold the gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by gregxxxnt » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:06 pm

I invite you to see me performing different downshifting techniques, including the Technique 1 described above by theholycow (I refer to it by "power shifitng"). Enjoy :)
http://youtu.be/mkJ1YTAv0bY

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Re: Can you hold the gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by Shadow » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:51 pm

gregxxxnt wrote:I invite you to see me performing different downshifting techniques, including the Technique 1 described above by theholycow (I refer to it by "power shifitng"). Enjoy :)
http://youtu.be/mkJ1YTAv0bY

Powershifting---when you keep the throttle wide open as you upshift into the next higher gear at or near redline. Looks & sounds like this:

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Re: Can you hold the gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by Chiba » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:04 am

I'm not classy :( I blimp :(

:lol: :lol:

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Re: Can you hold hold gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by Rope-Pusher » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:23 am

theholycow wrote: Bucky Footdeadski: Cruising along in gear at steady speed, right foot stays perfectly still, only clutch pedal and shifter move. This often works very nicely for a one-gear downshift, providing the perfect rev-match. Here, "steady throttle" refers to the throttle staying steady from beginning to end.

Mr. Footoffoningham: Foot off accelerator, clutch pedal down, foot on accelerator and holding it steady, shift, clutch pedal up. In this case "steady throttle" refers merely to a replacement for the blip.

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Re: Can you hold the gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by Bawked » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:09 am

To asking the original posters question: yes

tbh when you blip the revs are only into the correct range for a split second, if you are accurate enough to hold the revs exactly where they need to be then its possibly a better way to downshift!
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Re: Can you hold hold gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by tennispro » Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:57 pm

daleadbull wrote:When the clutch is down, you can blip or hold it steady or tap dance on it or whatever else you want. But I think what your asking is if its ok to hold the gas at the correct RPM while letting off the clutch, correct?

I personally don't do this but I've read that this "steady RPM" rev match is acceptable and many people do it. I myself prefer to just blip to the right RPM then engage the clutch while giving almost no gas. This way I know I'm not burning the clutch and if the rev match is close then it should be smooth and I wouldn't have to give it gas till the clutch is fully engaged.
This is how I do it too. I am very new with driving manual cars, but like you said, I..
1. Clutch in
2. Blip
3. change gears
4. clutch out and add just a tiny bit of gas

I always make sure to give it a healthy blip to that the RPMs don't get under what they need to be. I have found if they are over what they need to be, it's still a very smooth downshift. I was also wondering if you could just hold the gas in when downshifting and I tried it but it didn't feel right and I got a very jerky shift. So I just go with the blip technique, and like I said, I give it a healthy blip. Also if you are holding gas in and downshifting, doesn't that mean when you get to the near gear you are gonna be accelerating hard right away? With the blip technique, you come off the throttle so once you enter the new gear you can accelerate as you choose.

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Re: Can you hold hold gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by Squint » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:16 pm

tennispro wrote:I was also wondering if you could just hold the gas in when downshifting and I tried it but it didn't feel right and I got a very jerky shift. So I just go with the blip technique, and like I said, I give it a healthy blip. Also if you are holding gas in and downshifting, doesn't that mean when you get to the near gear you are gonna be accelerating hard right away? With the blip technique, you come off the throttle so once you enter the new gear you can accelerate as you choose.
In regards to holding the gas and shifting: you can, but instead of pushing the pedal enough so that you immediately accelerate, you guess where your RPM are going to be and hold the pedal there. So it isn't acceleration, but a constant rev-match.

So let's say you are slowing down towards a red light. You are going 20 mph and want to shift from 3rd to 2nd. Instead of blipping, you just leave your foot on the gas and put your RPM where you think 2nd gear would be at 20 mph. (random numbers) If you were at 2000 in 3rd, and you think ~2400 is where you would be if you shifted to 2nd, you'd just clutch in, adjust throttle to keep RPM ~2400, then shift from 3rd to 2nd, then clutch out and hopefully you matched the RPM fairly closely (or it might jerk a bit).

Obviously that is a simple explanation and each car can vary by numbers, but you get the idea. The blip causes the RPM to go above the target goal and hopefully falls to the right RPM right when you release the clutch pedal and the car goes into that gear. Personally, I something in between a blip and a hold. I go to shift, remove foot from gas/clutch pedal in, shift to proper gear, and instead of blipping then, I try to rev match. So it isn't a constant accelerator pedal usage, but more than a blip.
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Re: Can you hold the gas while downshift revmatching?

Post by tennispro » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:21 pm

What has worked for me is to give it a nice healthy blip. I always blip more then what is required because I know the RPM will fall in the next second before the whole process is done. Also if you are off in your RPM difference between gears but the RPMs are a little on the higher side, I still get a perfectly smooth shift.

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