Transition from 5spd to 6spd

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darkest2000
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Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by darkest2000 »

So I just got myself a new 2013 Accord Sedan manual which now comes with a 6MT instead of the 5MT that my 09 has. While I'm certainly not new to driving a manual, I've never driven a 6 spd before.

I noticed that the shifting intervals are somewhat different than what I'm used to, the factory recommended shifting points in the user manual are now in funny numbers instead of the easy to remember 10mph per shift.

Also I often find myself stopping at 5th and never really go into 6th on surface streets, any of you guys have any tips as far making the transition to driving a 6 spd "smoother", especially for someone that has learned to drive a stick on a 5spd and has been doing it during his entire stick shifting life?

Is the 5th gear in a 5spd the same ratio as the 6th gear in a 6 spd?
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by Rope-Pusher »

No guarantees that any of the gears in the 6-speed car line up with ratios you are familiar with from your 5-speed car.

Typically, 6-speeds cover more of a span from 1st to 6th than a 5-speed covers from 1st to 5th, but it's not usually like they just heaped another more-overdriven ratio on and called it 6th.
A 5-speed might have a 5:1 span from 1st to 5th, while a 6-speed might cover 5.5-6.5:1 span. It depends on what they were trying to achieve - performance-oriented transmissions tend to have a smaller ratio span than fuel economy oriented transmissions. The power-to-weight ratio of the vehicle and whether it is naturally aspirated or super/turbo-charged will make a difference in what ratios are chosen for it as well.

Although shifting into Reverse on many 5-speeds is dirt-simple compared to dealing with reverse inhibitors most 6-speeds utilize, I still think it's easier to move from 5-speed to a 6-speed than vice versa. I tend to be thinking about 6th gear in whatever vehicles I drive now and have to consciously stop myself from skip-shifting from 4th to 6th when driving 5-speeds.

I rarely look at the tach or the speedo to determine when to shift. I use "THE FORCE" to guide me. The sound of the engine and the feel of the powerband hem-in my shifting choices. Those lessons I signed up for with Master Yoda were the best investment I ever made.
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Shadow
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by Shadow »

Congrats on the new car. Having a 6th gear shouldn't really be any different from your old 5-speed, other than the fact that you might not "remember" that you have another gear to shift into after you're in 5th. With my car, I can actually use 6th gear even on the back roads as long as I'm going at least 30 mph. Any lower than that and I don't bother shifting into 6th gear.
Last edited by Shadow on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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six
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by six »

I'm the opposite of you... I've driven only 6-speeds my entire manual-shifting life and haven't really driven a 5-speed at all. I feel I can probably give you a unique perspective.

First, you should let go of the notion of 10MPH per shift; which gear you're in should depend on many factors, but on perfectly flat roads in ideal conditions, 10MPH per shift should still work on 6-speeds. However, I recommend you shift out of 1st gear as soon as you get moving and do most of your accelerating in 2nd and 3rd. Also, I find myself shifting to 3rd while passing 20MPH, and to 4th while passing 30MPH, etc; it's like sliding that scale back one unit. Usually, I'm in 5th-gear by the time I reach 40MPH. You shouldn't need to wind each gear that high, and you might find that you'd be saving a bit of gas that way too.

Second, you probably won't find yourself shifting to 6th much until you hop on a freeway or expressway. 1st-5th should be all you need on surface streets. If you drive on a long stretch of a relatively fast (40MPH+) and flat road, shifting to 6th would save a bit of gas.

Lastly, I want to remind you to not forget to shift to 6th-gear while on a freeway. Habits die hard, and once you're in a driving rhythm, you'd most likely forget that you have an extra gear a lot of the time. The same would probably go for me while driving a 5-speed... I would instinctively, and mistakenly, try to shift into reverse while accelerating onto a freeway.
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by DKaz »

Sometimes, the first five speeds of your new six speed might be exactly like what you had in the five speed version, but now you have a super overdrive. My six speed Mazda 3's fifth gear is geared the exactly the same as my old five speed Mazda 5's fifth gear.

FYI, I typically shift to sixth gear at 65 km/h (40 mph), my engine spins at 1500 RPM at that speed.
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by theholycow »

Ok, there's a lot of guesswork in here, so let's have a look at some numbers and then continue with wild-ass guesses.

2009 Accord:
Gear Ratios: 1st: 3.267, 2nd: 1.778, 3rd: 1.154, 4th: 0.870, 5th: 0.647, Reverse: 3.583, Final Drive Ratio: 4.39
Tire size: Incomplete data but an available size was P225/50-R17
Engine: 190@7000 HP, 162@4400 torque. I didn't look up a chart.
Curb weight: 3221
Coefficient of aerodynamic drag: .31

2013 Accord:
Gear Ratios: 1st: 3.643, 2nd: 2.080, 3rd: 1.361, 4th: 1.024, 5th: 0.830, 6th: 0.686, Reverse: 3.673, Final Drive Ratio: 4.105
Tire size: Varies by equipment. Base model is 205/65-R16.
Engine: Also varies by equipment. Base model is 185@6400 HP, 181@3900 torque. I didn't look up a chart.
Curb weight: 3192 lbs
Coefficient of aerodynamic drag: .30

The 2013 base model engine appears to have been tuned for power improvements at lower RPM. Weight is about the same. Drag is slightly reduced (unless frontal area was increased), which makes no difference at low speeds but can take effect at 30+mph.

Go ahead and play with a gear calculator.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/195616/GearCalc/index.htm

With the above numbers, the charts show that 1st gear is exactly the same. If my guess about the engine is correct then you should shift out of first at a slightly lower speed. Intermediate gears have closer ratios/spacing for 2013; with that and the engine, you should accelerate fewer mph in each gear. High gear (5th in 2009, 6th in 2013) is ever so slightly taller for 2013; if I'm right about the engine and drag then you should probably use 2013 6th exactly like you used 2009 5th.
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darkest2000
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by darkest2000 »

Lots of good information guys!

It looks like I need to shift into 2nd a bit earlier than before now which results in a smoother shift, I re-distributed the 2~5th gears in between 1st and 6th in my mind. Knowing the actual differences in the gear ratio really helped. Really enjoying the new 6 speed!
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by SonicHKS »

darkest2000 wrote:So I just got myself a new 2013 Accord Sedan manual which now comes with a 6MT instead of the 5MT that my 09 has. While I'm certainly not new to driving a manual, I've never driven a 6 spd before.

I noticed that the shifting intervals are somewhat different than what I'm used to, the factory recommended shifting points in the user manual are now in funny numbers instead of the easy to remember 10mph per shift.

Also I often find myself stopping at 5th and never really go into 6th on surface streets, any of you guys have any tips as far making the transition to driving a 6 spd "smoother", especially for someone that has learned to drive a stick on a 5spd and has been doing it during his entire stick shifting life?

Is the 5th gear in a 5spd the same ratio as the 6th gear in a 6 spd?

You don't go by what's in the manual. Just consider it this way, 1-3 gears are intermediate gears that get you up to speed. Rev each one out as much as you need to to get up to speed, I usually take the lower gears out to 3k, that way in each gear you start out at about 2k RPM, which on most cars is fine for acceleration. If your car is rev-happy and/or underpowered you might want to rev them out to 4k. Beyond that, you choose 4th, 5th, or 6th as your cruising gear depending on speed. In most cars, 4th is good for cruising at 30-40, 5th is good 40-55, and 6th is for highway cruising 55 and above. Your goal is to cruise at about 2000RPM, and you use 4th, 5th, and 6th to cruise at this RPM at different speeds.
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by sls8207 »

In most 6 speeds I've seen, using 6th gear is pretty rare unless you're cruising the highway > 70mph. Even then you'll find yourself having to downshift if there are any curves or hills you need to power through. As far as the actual transition from 5-6 speed, it shouldn't be too hard. You should still be basing your shifts off of feel because the car's manual doesn't really account for road conditions, hills, or any of that stuff.
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Shadow
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by Shadow »

sls8207 wrote:In most 6 speeds I've seen, using 6th gear is pretty rare unless you're cruising the highway > 70mph. Even then you'll find yourself having to downshift if there are any curves or hills you need to power through. As far as the actual transition from 5-6 speed, it shouldn't be too hard. You should still be basing your shifts off of feel because the car's manual doesn't really account for road conditions, hills, or any of that stuff.
That depends a lot on the car. Consider a powerful car like a new BMW M3 for example. You'd never have to downshift out of 6th gear on the highway. My car is the same way. Basically, if you have a lot of low-end torque and your gearing isn't absurdly high, you can run at highway speeds all day without ever shifting out of 6th gear. Hills? No problem. Need to pass someone? No problem.
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by AHTOXA »

There really shouldn't be any needed transition time between both. I think that subject is greatly over-analyzed in this case. Most of the shifting happens by feel anyway - at least for me. Once you "feel" that you gotta go to the next gear, just go. I've never had to stop and even consider thinking of the difference between the two or any adjusting, not even the very first time I drove a 6-speed. I've driven 5 speeds for a long time as well before I ever drove a 6-speed.
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by sls8207 »

Shadow wrote:That depends a lot on the car. Consider a powerful car like a new BMW M3 for example. You'd never have to downshift out of 6th gear on the highway. My car is the same way. Basically, if you have a lot of low-end torque and your gearing isn't absurdly high, you can run at highway speeds all day without ever shifting out of 6th gear. Hills? No problem. Need to pass someone? No problem.
That's true, totally depends on the car. I've driven a newer Jeep Wrangler with a 6 speed and I don't even think it had enough power to get to a speed suitable for 6th gear. I also drove my friends 5 series once and it had plenty of power to accelerate in a high gear. I have no idea about the gearing in the Accord, but he should be able to get a feel for it. I learned on a 5 speed and transitioning to a 6 speed wasn't really any different because I wasn't doing a lot of highway driving.
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by AHTOXA »

sls8207 wrote:
Shadow wrote:That depends a lot on the car. Consider a powerful car like a new BMW M3 for example. You'd never have to downshift out of 6th gear on the highway. My car is the same way. Basically, if you have a lot of low-end torque and your gearing isn't absurdly high, you can run at highway speeds all day without ever shifting out of 6th gear. Hills? No problem. Need to pass someone? No problem.
That's true, totally depends on the car. I've driven a newer Jeep Wrangler with a 6 speed and I don't even think it had enough power to get to a speed suitable for 6th gear.
What? I don't think you drove a 4-cyl, but any 6 cyl in the two recent gens of the Wrangler would have plenty of torque to get up to speed. The perspective also depends on experience as well. There are those that drive cars that hit a 1/4 mile in 25 seconds at 50 mph and don't think that that type of power is dangerous and insufficient to get up to speed and keep up with traffic. On the flip side, coming from a powerful sedan/coupe to a Wrangler will be different.
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by sls8207 »

AHTOXA wrote: What? I don't think you drove a 4-cyl, but any 6 cyl in the two recent gens of the Wrangler would have plenty of torque to get up to speed. The perspective also depends on experience as well. There are those that drive cars that hit a 1/4 mile in 25 seconds at 50 mph and don't think that that type of power is dangerous and insufficient to get up to speed and keep up with traffic. On the flip side, coming from a powerful sedan/coupe to a Wrangler will be different.
I kind of exaggerated there. The Wrangler is just incredibly slow even compared to some 4cyl compact cars. We took a trip one time on a highway with a lot of curves and slopes and had to downshift on almost all of them.
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Re: Transition from 5spd to 6spd

Post by AHTOXA »

Heck, maybe it was a 4 cyl Wrangler.
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