New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

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six
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by six »

potownrob wrote:
six wrote:I usually launch from a hair above idle, ~900,000 RPM.
:shock: :o :? :| :evil: :( :cry:
hahahahahaha :lol:
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daleadbull
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by daleadbull »

six wrote:
potownrob wrote:
six wrote:I usually launch from a hair above idle, ~900,000 RPM.
:shock: :o :? :| :evil: :( :cry:
hahahahahaha :lol:
lol I didn't even catch that. I hope your clutch has been juicing.
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by daleadbull »

What does it mean when the bucks back and forth during launch (not violently), does this mean I'm holding onto the clutch too long or releasing it too quickly?
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by theholycow »

It means you're too aggressive with the clutch or not aggressive enough with the accelerator. "Releasing too quickly" would be approximately accurate, but you could give it a few more RPM instead of adjusting your clutch foot.
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by daleadbull »

theholycow wrote:It means you're too aggressive with the clutch or not aggressive enough with the accelerator. "Releasing too quickly" would be approximately accurate, but you could give it a few more RPM instead of adjusting your clutch foot.
The thing I'm having trouble with is the pause of the clutch during the launch. When you are give it a few more RPM, do you still need to pause at the engagement point to help things hook up or can you just release the clutch in a slow and smooth?
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by theholycow »

daleadbull wrote:The thing I'm having trouble with is the pause of the clutch during the launch. When you are give it a few more RPM, do you still need to pause at the engagement point to help things hook up or can you just release the clutch in a slow and smooth?
This is bound to differ for each driver in each car in each situation. In general, when addressing the issue you described, I'd say if you're using more RPM then keep the clutch work exactly the same as before.
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by daleadbull »

theholycow wrote:
daleadbull wrote:The thing I'm having trouble with is the pause of the clutch during the launch. When you are give it a few more RPM, do you still need to pause at the engagement point to help things hook up or can you just release the clutch in a slow and smooth?
This is bound to differ for each driver in each car in each situation. In general, when addressing the issue you described, I'd say if you're using more RPM then keep the clutch work exactly the same as before.
What do you mean by same as before? So I should still pause for the same amount of time as if i'm launching at idle RPM?

I thought more gas meant less clutch?
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by theholycow »

daleadbull wrote:What do you mean by same as before? So I should still pause for the same amount of time as if i'm launching at idle RPM?

I thought more gas meant less clutch?
I mean same as when you asked "What does it mean when the bucks back and forth during launch". The remedy is less clutch or more gas.

More gas means less clutch when you're already getting the results you want. When you're trying to solve a problem that could be described as imbalance you need to adjust only one side of the equation...if you adjust both sides you maintain the same imbalance.
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by daleadbull »

theholycow wrote:
daleadbull wrote:What do you mean by same as before? So I should still pause for the same amount of time as if i'm launching at idle RPM?

I thought more gas meant less clutch?
I mean same as when you asked "What does it mean when the bucks back and forth during launch". The remedy is less clutch or more gas.

More gas means less clutch when you're already getting the results you want. When you're trying to solve a problem that could be described as imbalance you need to adjust only one side of the equation...if you adjust both sides you maintain the same imbalance.
I gotcha. So when the car is in the process of bucking a little, I should just hold the clutch and add more gas correct?

My problem is that I think I'm getting on the gas too late. I release the clutch till the engagement point, then pause/slow down at engagement point then I add gas. If I don't pause or slow down enough through the engagement point that's when I get the bucking or engine is about to die sensation. I guess I should be adding gas as I near the engagement point (or right before engagement) with the clutch, is this what most people do to get a smooth launch?
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by theholycow »

daleadbull wrote:I gotcha. So when the car is in the process of bucking a little, I should just hold the clutch and add more gas correct?
It's tough to fix a botched launch...what you want to do is groom habits that result in better launching. That's what we're really discussing here. Still, occasionally you'll end up with a crappy launch. Once it's in the process of bucking a little, you might just want to hold the clutch and gas right where they are and wait it out; once it smooths out, then maybe you can add a slight amount of gas and very slowly continue your clutch release.
My problem is that I think I'm getting on the gas too late. I release the clutch till the engagement point, then pause/slow down at engagement point then I add gas. If I don't pause or slow down enough through the engagement point that's when I get the bucking or engine is about to die sensation. I guess I should be adding gas as I near the engagement point (or right before engagement) with the clutch, is this what most people do to get a smooth launch?
I think most people add gas before they even start working the clutch, but for a little more perfection you can find the right balance between that and what you currently do. If the clutch is biting, you haven't added gas, and you're not clutching like a no-gas launch, then you're too late on the gas.

Have you practiced no-gas launches? That was one of the things that really helped me with my VW. I'm sure yours, like mine did, has plenty of torque for no-gas launching. Adjusting my accelerator foot position (whole foot on whole pedal, rather than toe on the edge) helped too. If I had known then what I know now I'd also have practiced free-revving (sitting in neutral in the driveway revving) with RPM targets in small increments.
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by daleadbull »

theholycow wrote:
daleadbull wrote:My problem is that I think I'm getting on the gas too late. I release the clutch till the engagement point, then pause/slow down at engagement point then I add gas. If I don't pause or slow down enough through the engagement point that's when I get the bucking or engine is about to die sensation. I guess I should be adding gas as I near the engagement point (or right before engagement) with the clutch, is this what most people do to get a smooth launch?
I think most people add gas before they even start working the clutch, but for a little more perfection you can find the right balance between that and what you currently do. If the clutch is biting, you haven't added gas, and you're not clutching like a no-gas launch, then you're too late on the gas.

Have you practiced no-gas launches? That was one of the things that really helped me with my VW. I'm sure yours, like mine did, has plenty of torque for no-gas launching. Adjusting my accelerator foot position (whole foot on whole pedal, rather than toe on the edge) helped too. If I had known then what I know now I'd also have practiced free-revving (sitting in neutral in the driveway revving) with RPM targets in small increments.
Yes, I'm actually really good at the no gas launches and I have pretty good feel for the throttle now, I can rev match downshift pretty well.

My problem is launching quickly, for example when I am the first one at a stop light and the light turns green or when I'm tying to merge onto a highway. In these situations, I should dial in some revs around 1000-1500 RPM before even releasing the clutch, then hold the gas steady and let the clutch out smoothly. Is this correct?

I guess when you're trying a quick launch like that you don't need to pause at engagement like you would with the no gas launch right? I'm so used to the no gas launches that I always pause at engagement when launching which really slows down my launch.
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by theholycow »

daleadbull wrote:My problem is launching quickly, for example when I am the first one at a stop light and the light turns green or when I'm tying to merge onto a highway. In these situations, I should dial in some revs around 1000-1500 RPM before even releasing the clutch, then hold the gas steady and let the clutch out smoothly. Is this correct?
If you're stopped at the end of an entrance ramp and need to jump into fast-moving traffic you probably want more like 2000 RPM in your car, and aggressive but smooth clutch release with no pause. As it starts grabbing hard you lay into the gas more, even before the clutch is fully released.

If you just mean a normal launch where you weren't prepared ahead of time, more practice is probably all that can help with that, not a logical discussion of it broken down into individual steps.
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by theholycow »

I just looked up the 2012 Golf R. :shock: Yeah, 1500's probably high enough.
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by daleadbull »

theholycow wrote:I just looked up the 2012 Golf R. :shock: Yeah, 1500's probably high enough.
Thanks, yea I love the car. It's a jack of all trades, I have the stage 1 flash so making around 300 hp/tq now. I can't wait till I can get the launch down, so that I can really take advantage of the awd.

Thanks for all your help btw. So if you dial in the revs with the clutch in, then smooth non-stop clutch release is the way to go then. That's exactly what I needed to know!

I'm just so afraid of stalling that I'm scared of letting the clutch out without pause. I just need more practice, now to find a good empty place to practice...
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Re: New Manual Driver - Launching Questions

Post by theholycow »

daleadbull wrote:So if you dial in the revs with the clutch in, then smooth non-stop clutch release is the way to go then. That's exactly what I needed to know!
Well, that's for a relatively aggressive launch. For polite launches that won't turn heads (especially that cop sitting in the parking lot nearby), you might want to launch that car near idle RPM (but not no-gas -- more gas and more clutch than a no-gas launch, gives you quicker launch than no-gas without requiring high RPM), which will likely require a paused clutch release. I'm not sure, I know that the 2.0t manages a lot of torque from very low RPM, but I don't know exactly how it compares to the 2.5 NA that I'm used to at idle. Obviously this is as much a personal preference matter as it is anything else, and the best way to know exactly what works for you is to try everything, repeatedly, until you find your favorite.
I'm just so afraid of stalling that I'm scared of letting the clutch out without pause. I just need more practice, now to find a good empty place to practice...
Don't be afraid of stalling, it's pretty much harmless. I stalled my 2008 VW about seventy million times before I finally got a handle on that clutch and that drive-by-wire throttle.

By the way, do you have any comments on your DBW, especially having that stage 1 flash?
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