Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

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theholycow
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by theholycow »

lyonsroar wrote:But downshifting like from 4-3 or 3-2 without rev-matching is OK? Just trying to get it straight before I learn how to do it the wrong way. I don't downshift often because I prefer to use the brakes, but I need to know how to do it correctly.
Looking at this post again...at very low RPM a one-gear downshift can sometimes be done reasonably without rev-matching.

I did a sequential two-gear downshift this morning without any rev matching. I was cruising at about 1300RPM when conditions changed and I decided I wanted to accelerate slightly faster so I flicked it down one gear, then immediately decided I wanted a little more so I flicked it down another. Since the difference between my close-ratio gears is so tiny at low RPM it didn't really matter if I tried to rev-match, and would only have made it take longer.

Also, I just noticed the part about "prefer to use the brakes"; downshifting is for accelerating, not so much for braking (unless you're descending a mountain, or have studied your car's DFCO behavior and are executing a gas-saving strategy).
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by LHOswald »

after reading this thread and thinking about my driving today, i must say, my concentration of my feet and right hand are next to nothing. the only thing im concentrating on is where other cars are around me, what type of terrain i'm on (road, dirt, wet road, rocky wet road, etc.) and where the weight is being shifted to as i turn, brake or accelerate. even though im double clutching all my shifts up and down its so subconscious now its kinda sad how mad i was at myself when i first started off, and i've only been driving for a dedicated 6 months (before that was on and off before i acquired my license) and it really just matters on how focused you are and how patient you are.

everyones said it and ill reiterate. Practice, Practice, Practice. the only way you learn is from your muscles memorizing what to do. you consciously thinking about it really only makes it worse. fast typists don't sit there and stare at the keys and try to figure out what key they're going to hit next, they just think about what they want to do, and their fingers do it (TWSS). thats how you want to be when driving stick. here are some tips to help you out, some of its been said, but why not read it again? it'll just be burned into your retina faster:

1. practice no-gas launches on a flat, uninhabited parking lot
2. practice how sensitive your throttle is (how hard you have to press it to get it to X amount of RPMS, how long it takes to get there with said amount of gas)
3. practice launching with a good speed in low traffic situations (a normal launch) clutch to friction point, add a tiny amount of gas, wait til things get synced up, let out clutch and on you go
4. know you heard this before. never get high on your own supply (biggie get out of my post!)
5. practice upshifts. remember that the clutch needs to be put down the same time or possibly a little later than the gas needs to come up. if you have a cable linked throttle than clutch\gas need to be down and up at the same time respectively. if you have DBW, my limited first-hand driving of a DBW MT was that if you let off the gas a split second before the clutch goes down, the RPMs don't spike. if you clutch down and gas up at the same time in a DBW, theres a slight RPM spike from the throttle not being closed because most DBW throttles suck on any MT.
6. practice downshifts. downshifts are as easy as you want them to be. if you want to just shove it into the next lower gear and let the clutch take the abuse, go ahead. if you want to drive like the pro's do, at least a rev match on the downshift is a must. Heel-Toe is usually not a necessity, but it is fun as all hell when you get it down without thinking about it. especially DCHT (Double Clutch Heel-Toe). finding how much gas you need to give is different every shift. you'll never shift the same twice, its literally impossible. you'll always be shifting at a slightly different speed, or maybe your engine is cold and doesn't rev up as fast as normal. its been said, you'll never drive perfectly, the only thing you can do is practice an assload and come as close to perfect as humanly possible.

last but not least, YOU HAVE A GREAT CAR. you have plenty of miles left on the clutch, and your still learning. theres absolutely nothing you can do to not damage the clutch a little when your learning. the best you can do is apply these techniques the right way, don't take shortcuts and try to cheat because its a little easier (clutch jobs aren't the cheapest things around) and remember to just have fun. even when you get frustrated because you can't get the car to do what you want it to do, you'll get there eventually. patience is a virtue, especially when driving stick.
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by FDSpirit »

You don't have to keep your clutch at the friction point once the car starts moving and you're applying gas. You can continue to slowly release it. Just remember not to jump the gun or you'll buck that launch. You should only have to pause for a brief moment. No gas follows the same method, just no gas. I think I worded that correctly. Mr Cowman had the same experience when learning. Just because the car is moving doesn't mean you're done with the clutch. Just remember like the others have said. It takes time. I've been driving a little over a year and I still make noob mistakes. But compared to what I was doing a year ago, its nothing.
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by theholycow »

LHOswald wrote:fast typists don't sit there and stare at the keys and try to figure out what key they're going to hit next, they just think about what they want to do, and their fingers do it (TWSS).
A very good analogy, sir!
4. know you heard this before. never get high on your own supply (biggie get out of my post!)
:lol:
FDSpirit wrote:You don't have to keep your clutch at the friction point once the car starts moving and you're applying gas. You can continue to slowly release it. Just remember not to jump the gun or you'll buck that launch. You should only have to pause for a brief moment. No gas follows the same method, just no gas. I think I worded that correctly. Mr Cowman had the same experience when learning. Just because the car is moving doesn't mean you're done with the clutch.
I would not say that first and second sentence, but the rest I agree with. With a decently designed manual car, the first and second sentences are true...but modern cars are not made that way.
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by FDSpirit »

Okay. Gotcha :) . Thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by lyonsroar »

OK, quick update. The evening after I got off work from posting this thread I decided to concentrate on my driving and stop worrying about it. As soon as I got it through my head that I just wasn't as fast off the line as most people right now I did great. I stopped worrying about the people behind me and just concentrated on getting smooth starts. It is getting so much better! I did a few no gas starts at stop signs when there was no one around and I have the feel of where the fricion point is, now I'm working on speed.

I also learned the key to perfect (almost always) upshifts. I find if I string out the gear to 3,000 RPM and then shift my normal speed, the RPM's fall back into the right range (2,000's) perfectly, leading to nearly seamless shifting.


Thanks for all the advice! I read every post on here in detail:

theholycow wrote:
lyonsroar wrote:But downshifting like from 4-3 or 3-2 without rev-matching is OK? Just trying to get it straight before I learn how to do it the wrong way. I don't downshift often because I prefer to use the brakes, but I need to know how to do it correctly.
Looking at this post again...at very low RPM a one-gear downshift can sometimes be done reasonably without rev-matching.
I found this out the other day when approaching a hill I went 4th to 3rd at about 1600 RPMs and it was perfectly smoooooth.

I also tried to rev match once and it was really smooth so I said "oh, that wasn't so hard" before I realized that I had only put it in neutral...hehe... :oops:
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by LHOswald »

we told you it works!!!
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by FDSpirit »

:lol: . Nice. :)
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by fa22raptorf22 »

[quote="lyonsroar"]
I found this out the other day when approaching a hill I went 4th to 3rd at about 1600 RPMs and it was perfectly smoooooth.
/quote]

That is because your car is slowing down, but the engine rpm is not, meaning that you are in the correct gear for your speed by downshifting.
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by DKaz »

I won't repeat everything everyone said except just give it time, we've all been there. A week after I got my first manual car, I was harsh regretting the torture I was putting myself through, but within the second week I had learned to accelerate smooth and was even able to start from a stop uphill with confidence. You'll get there! :) Nice ride!!! I wish I could throw that engine and transmission into my Mazda 5.
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by lyonsroar »

I think I've hit the plateau. Barely ever stall anymore and 95% my upshifts are perfectly smooth. The only thing I sometimes have an issue with is first gear starts. Sometimes I'm still jerky, it's not near as bad as it used to be, but still not perfect.

I still avoid hills like the plague though... :lol:

Also, twice on accident I have tried to do a third gear start. That's not easy...
It makes some very bad noises and vibrations...
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by FDSpirit »

Yeah. I've done a few 3rd gear starts by mistake. Not fun :lol: . Glad to hear you're getting better though. You at least need to make an attempt to do those hill launches.
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by Jon2000 »

lyonsroar wrote:I think I've hit the plateau. Barely ever stall anymore and 95% my upshifts are perfectly smooth. The only thing I sometimes have an issue with is first gear starts. Sometimes I'm still jerky, it's not near as bad as it used to be, but still not perfect.

I still avoid hills like the plague though... :lol:

Also, twice on accident I have tried to do a third gear start. That's not easy...
It makes some very bad noises and vibrations...
I've had my speed3 for 7 months (around 6000 miles) and I can still be a little jerky with first gear starts if I'm not paying close attention to the clutch ...occasionally 2nd gear can be a little jerky if I don't let the revs fall enough or if I release the clutch too quick. If you are releasing the clutch slowly and feel that your revs are about to dip and cause a jerky start trying putting super light pressure back on the clutch - it will smooth it right out for you...or if you're trying to do a slow speed start you can hold the clutch for a second at the friction point then continue releasing slowly. It's very easy to release the clutch past the friction point when trying to get moving from a stop in this car since the area is so small. The best advice I can give you is to not expect every shift and start to be perfect - I'm still trying to listen to my own advice. haha Hills can be challenging in this car as well - you really need to be able to find the friction point quickly. You can try to ease off the brake while getting onto the gas - this may keep you more relaxed. If you're really uncomfortable you can also use the handbrake method.
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by lyonsroar »

I have done a few hills using the handbrake method and I can do it that way, but not quickly.

I'm getting better!!
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Re: Brand new manual driver...a little depressed

Post by FDSpirit »

Handbrake method is fine. If it works for you, use it.
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