No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Read the FAQ and still not sure about something? Want to shift faster? Post here.
Tinton
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3086
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:01 pm
Cars: 91 MR2t, 88&86 Fieros
Location: GA

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by Tinton »

Bawked wrote:
eve20 wrote:Thank you to everybody who gave me suggestions. I had no idea you could come off the clutch to a certain point and the car would crawl forward. I've tried letting the clutch out a little more and I seem to be lauching better without jerking forward. Of course, i'm not always perfect at launching but for the most part I seem to be doing better! I didn't really understand what the clutch did, so thanks to everybody for basically explaining it! :)
no! no a point but a zone..... ffs A ZONE!!!! :lol: it always moves ITS A ZONE ITS A ZONE ITS A ZONE!!!
I should have clarified here, on most cars its a zone. On my '86 4-speed its basically just a spot where the clutch grabs, it may be an inch or less long, at most.

I also think PS and scionkid are partially right. If you're concentrating on the point in clutch pedal travel where you can get the car moving, that changes depending on load. If you're facing uphill carrying a heavy load that zone will be a bit different than if you're sitting on flat pavement with the car empty. I've been saying that people should learn where the clutch starts grabbing so they have easier launches, instead of just blindly popping the clutch out every launch.
Caramel
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 548
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:37 am
Cars: [1999 Volvo S70]

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by Caramel »

Eve, just keep practicing, everyone here's just arguing about terms hahaha.
And I'm glad you started trying out no-gas moving =) (not no gas launching b/c it's so .. not useful.) just releasing only the clutch helps in parking as well so you can creep little by little.
Also if you read a bit more about car transmissions and clutches etc you'll start to understand your car more, which helped me in learning standard anyway.

Have you tried shifting? Any problems with that yet?
Image
Prodigal Son
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3079
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:20 pm
Cars: 2006 Jetta, 2004 Miata
Location: Ottawa

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by Prodigal Son »

scionkid wrote:OTOH, the friction point, the point where the engine grabs the transmission, doesn't care for the motion of the car nor change much over the life of the vehicle. IMO, that's the point when extra power should be applied because that extra power goes toward moving the vehicle instead of just spinning the engine for nothing.
But spinning it for how long? A quarter of a second maybe? Not going to use much gas in that time. Seems to me that the extra time it would take to launch this way would add more to the overall time the engine was running.

But this has nothing to do with the real reason that I do not recommend the friction point method or the catch point method to new drivers. In fact the reason has nothing to do with the mechanics of the car at all and everything to do with the way that human beings learn to do physical tasks.

The way to learn to do a physical task is to isolate one movement and practice it over and over again until it becomes second nature. The isolation is key, because it allows the learner to focus and to really feel and absorb what is going on. Without that isolation, learning takes longer and often does not really sink in or lead to good technique.

This is why music teachers force their students to play scales and five-finger exercises: they are isolating the motions that are essential to good techniques and there the foundation of real musicianship. Learning to drive is not different. Clutch control is the foundation and you need to study and master that motion in isolation if you are to perfect it.

The reason for doing no-gas starts is precisely to isolate the motion of the clutch from all other motions so that you can really learn it. By eliminating the possibility of using the gas to compensate for mistakes with the clutch, they force the driver to learn good clutch control.

The reason for giving gas first and holding it while you let out the clutch is the same: to isolate the clutch motion, both so that you can launch reliably while you are learning by focusing on that one motion, and so that you learn that one motion well by isolating it from the rest.

Once good clutch control is mastered, simultaneous movements of the gas and clutch to further optimize the speed and smoothness of the launch will follow naturally. But the clutch control will always be better is the motion is learned in isolation.
Just some guy on the Internet. Heed with care.
User avatar
Bawked
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 2417
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:24 am
Cars: 08 JDM Subaru Impreza STI
Location: New Zealand

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by Bawked »

^ Awesome post! Agree entirely! :D
<3 fwd
User avatar
Bawked
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 2417
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:24 am
Cars: 08 JDM Subaru Impreza STI
Location: New Zealand

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by Bawked »

Tinton wrote:
Bawked wrote:
eve20 wrote:Thank you to everybody who gave me suggestions. I had no idea you could come off the clutch to a certain point and the car would crawl forward. I've tried letting the clutch out a little more and I seem to be lauching better without jerking forward. Of course, i'm not always perfect at launching but for the most part I seem to be doing better! I didn't really understand what the clutch did, so thanks to everybody for basically explaining it! :)
no! no a point but a zone..... ffs A ZONE!!!! :lol: it always moves ITS A ZONE ITS A ZONE ITS A ZONE!!!
I should have clarified here, on most cars its a zone. On my '86 4-speed its basically just a spot where the clutch grabs, it may be an inch or less long, at most.

I also think PS and scionkid are partially right. If you're concentrating on the point in clutch pedal travel where you can get the car moving, that changes depending on load. If you're facing uphill carrying a heavy load that zone will be a bit different than if you're sitting on flat pavement with the car empty. I've been saying that people should learn where the clutch starts grabbing so they have easier launches, instead of just blindly popping the clutch out every launch.
YOU ARE WRONG!!

its a zone... its different depending if you are on a gradient, downhill, etc. I'm not wrong so don't argue!
<3 fwd
User avatar
theholycow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 16021
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
Location: Glocester, RI
Contact:

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by theholycow »

Prodigal Son wrote:This is why music teachers force their students to play scales and five-finger exercises: they are isolating the motions that are essential to good techniques and there the foundation of real musicianship. Learning to drive is not different. Clutch control is the foundation and you need to study and master that motion in isolation if you are to perfect it.

The reason for doing no-gas starts is precisely to isolate the motion of the clutch from all other motions so that you can really learn it. By eliminating the possibility of using the gas to compensate for mistakes with the clutch, they force the driver to learn good clutch control.
Image
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
Tinton
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3086
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:01 pm
Cars: 91 MR2t, 88&86 Fieros
Location: GA

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by Tinton »

Bawked wrote:
Tinton wrote:
I should have clarified here, on most cars its a zone. On my '86 4-speed its basically just a spot where the clutch grabs, it may be an inch or less long, at most.

I also think PS and scionkid are partially right. If you're concentrating on the point in clutch pedal travel where you can get the car moving, that changes depending on load. If you're facing uphill carrying a heavy load that zone will be a bit different than if you're sitting on flat pavement with the car empty. I've been saying that people should learn where the clutch starts grabbing so they have easier launches, instead of just blindly popping the clutch out every launch.
YOU ARE WRONG!!

its a zone... its different depending if you are on a gradient, downhill, etc. I'm not wrong so don't argue!
You have a noob clutch. I have a racing clutch. End of story here, the clutch in my '86 has no "zone" son it simply grabs :roll: :lol:.
Image
Tinton
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3086
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:01 pm
Cars: 91 MR2t, 88&86 Fieros
Location: GA

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by Tinton »

theholycow wrote:
Prodigal Son wrote:This is why music teachers force their students to play scales and five-finger exercises: they are isolating the motions that are essential to good techniques and there the foundation of real musicianship. Learning to drive is not different. Clutch control is the foundation and you need to study and master that motion in isolation if you are to perfect it.

The reason for doing no-gas starts is precisely to isolate the motion of the clutch from all other motions so that you can really learn it. By eliminating the possibility of using the gas to compensate for mistakes with the clutch, they force the driver to learn good clutch control.
Image
Eh I learned pedal control with my left foot before I got into a manual car. Before I learned to drive stick I made myself left-foot-brake for a few months before-hand, so I could develop a sense of the pedal's location and so I could fine-tune my movements with my foot. Knowing exactly where the clutch pedal is and being able to move your foot in small increments helps a lot. And also, just simply letting the clutch out in a generic way and not fine-tuning the movements for clutch and gas gives jerky launches.
User avatar
ClutchFork
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1940
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:55 pm
Cars: 2008 Fusion 2.3L manual
Location: Detroit MI

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by ClutchFork »

theholycow wrote:
Prodigal Son wrote:This is why music teachers force their students to play scales and five-finger exercises: they are isolating the motions that are essential to good techniques and there the foundation of real musicianship. Learning to drive is not different. Clutch control is the foundation and you need to study and master that motion in isolation if you are to perfect it.

The reason for doing no-gas starts is precisely to isolate the motion of the clutch from all other motions so that you can really learn it. By eliminating the possibility of using the gas to compensate for mistakes with the clutch, they force the driver to learn good clutch control.
Image
What it amounts to is developing muscle memory for the friction zone. Yet, I don't recall any problem with motorcycles and the transition to using a hand clutch (this being about 35 years ago) and so it can't just be muscle memory. Much of it must reside in the cranium. Now that presents a new question. Would it be as easy to go from left foot to right foot clutching? Perhaps it is a matter like writing where most people can only write with one hand, not the other. Well good thing the cars in England still have the clutch on the left. But it seems like it would be weird shifting left handed.

As for the OP and no RPM gauge (I like that terminology!), well I covered my RPM gauge a couple months ago and actually enjoy driving my Ranger more now. The pesky RPM gauge is a distraction.

Well, hope you all appreciate my dredging up this very old thread, but I found it on a general search off Google and was compelled to post. Besides I haven't been on the site in a long time so figured some might be wondering what happened to me (or glad I left :lol: ).
Stick shiftin since '77
theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...
User avatar
theholycow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 16021
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
Location: Glocester, RI
Contact:

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by theholycow »

InlinePaul wrote:Would it be as easy to go from left foot to right foot clutching? Perhaps it is a matter like writing where most people can only write with one hand, not the other.
I had the same question so I tried no-gas launching with my right foot. Despite feeling a little clumsy, objectively I'd say it's easier than it is with my left foot. I seem to have a more dexterous right leg, despite whatever is said about nerve pathways being crossed so right-handed people should be left-footed or whatever.

I don't find the RPM gauge a distraction, I find it to be another good source of data for my data addiction.
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
User avatar
ClutchFork
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1940
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:55 pm
Cars: 2008 Fusion 2.3L manual
Location: Detroit MI

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by ClutchFork »

theholycow wrote:
InlinePaul wrote:Would it be as easy to go from left foot to right foot clutching? Perhaps it is a matter like writing where most people can only write with one hand, not the other.
I had the same question so I tried no-gas launching with my right foot. Despite feeling a little clumsy, objectively I'd say it's easier than it is with my left foot. I seem to have a more dexterous right leg, despite whatever is said about nerve pathways being crossed so right-handed people should be left-footed or whatever.
Well that is good to know because one never knows when their left leg might get cut off. Ya know, run over by a train or something. One must always be ready to drive a stick no mater what. But seriously, you could break your ankle and have to use the right leg and a broomstick for the accelerator. Certainly would not want to admit that you actually need an automatic. Take the bus before that happens.
Stick shiftin since '77
theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...
User avatar
theholycow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 16021
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
Location: Glocester, RI
Contact:

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by theholycow »

InlinePaul wrote:But seriously, you could break your ankle and have to use the right leg and a broomstick for the accelerator. Certainly would not want to admit that you actually need an automatic. Take the bus before that happens.
A broken leg takes long enough to heal that to me it would be worth installing a hand throttle. For that matter, I sometimes want a hand throttle despite having two good legs.
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
Rope-Pusher
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 11615
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:44 pm
Cars: '08 Jeep Liberty
Location: Greater Detroit Area

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by Rope-Pusher »

theholycow wrote: Image
I sometimes want a hand throttle to go with my sea legs.
Fickset
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"
User avatar
Squint
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3390
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:44 pm
Location: KY

Re: No RPM gauge, starting from stop

Post by Squint »

Rope-Pusher wrote:
theholycow wrote: Image
I sometimes want a hand throttle to go with my sea legs.
Fickset
Having a boat throttle (or airplane throttle) could be fun. Add more switches (even if they do nothing) and turn your car into a jet cockpit!


...


I think someone tried to do that theme already and it hasn't worked out so well...
'15 Mazda 3 iSport Hatch 6MT
'11 Ford Fiesta Hatchback SE 5MT
'14 Giant Escape City 24MT
'97 Honda Civic EX 4AT - Retired @ 184,001 mi

For Pony!
Post Reply