Upshift At Higher RPM

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Side1021
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Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by Side1021 »

Hi!

Anybody have any tips on shifting at higher RPM? Say around 5k or 6k or even higher (redline?). I have read couple threads on this forum. And some people are saying shift quickly (clutch->quickly shift to the next gear->dump clutch-> smash gas). Won't this introduce a very jerky ride? On another note, I've realized the higher RPM you go the more RPM needs to drop for the next gear. Does that mean the high you Rev up, the slow the shift (wait slightly before releasing clutch quickly. Quickly, not dumping it)?

I'm very confused here...

PS. How does the car react when hitting the rev limiter? Suddenly slowdown a bit?


Regards,


Thanks!
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by Prodigal Son »

Side1021 wrote: Anybody have any tips on shifting at higher RPM? Say around 5k or 6k or even higher (redline?). I have read couple threads on this forum. And some people are saying shift quickly (clutch->quickly shift to the next gear->dump clutch-> smash gas). Won't this introduce a very jerky ride?
Yes it will. What people are saying, I think, is that if you are running you gears up to redline, then presumably you are trying to accelerate very quickly, and so, in the interest of maximum acceleration, you jam it into the next gear and accept the jerky ride as the price of maximizing acceleration.

Just remember that if you do this, you will increase wear on all your drive line components, and also increase the risk of losing control of the car when the jerk its the wheels.

If you want a smooth shift, you have to wait for the revs to fall, but if you want a smooth shift, why are you running up to redline in the first place?
Side1021 wrote:On another note, I've realized the higher RPM you go the more RPM needs to drop for the next gear. Does that mean the high you Rev up, the slow the shift (wait slightly before releasing clutch quickly. Quickly, not dumping it)?
Precisely. Though note that how long you have to wait will vary greatly from car to car. The revs on my Miata drop much faster than the revs on my Jetta do, and I have to snatch the shifts on the Miata to keep them smooth.
Side1021 wrote:How does the car react when hitting the rev limiter? Suddenly slowdown a bit?
It stops accelerating when the ECU cuts fuel to the engine. Which will feel quite like slowing down.
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by Nychold »

Side1021 wrote:Anybody have any tips on shifting at higher RPM? Say around 5k or 6k or even higher (redline?). I have read couple threads on this forum. And some people are saying shift quickly (clutch->quickly shift to the next gear->dump clutch-> smash gas). Won't this introduce a very jerky ride?
Never dump a clutch. It will always make for a very jerky ride, and might even damage the transmission, axle, differential, or other drivetrain parts. As for the rest, so long as you release the clutch in a nice, smooth, fluid motion, the ride shouldn't be too jerky. Jerky rides come from jerky clutch releases. Be methodical, intentional, and smooth, and no matter the shift of your shift, the ride will be smooth. Now, if you want to shift quickly without the clutch slipping too much, that requires waiting for the revs to fall a bit, which makes you slow.
Side1021 wrote:PS. How does the car react when hitting the rev limiter? Suddenly slowdown a bit?
This depends on the car's ECU. For example, in the 2005-2006 Scion tC (the year before mine), the rev limiter cut fuel to the engine until it was below a certain RPM. If you hold the gas down on it, you'll hear a "RIN-IN-IN-IN-IN" sound as it bounces off the rev limiter. In the 2007 model (mine), the engine just cuts the gas altogether, until you come off the gas pedal and reapply it. This results in that instant deceleration you mentioned because, well, there's no gas in the motor! :)
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SonyAD
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by SonyAD »

Running up to redline doesn't mean you can't shift smoothly.
Side1021
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by Side1021 »

Hello,

Thanks for the tips and clarifications! One more thing. I understand that there will be no slipping of clutch when you fully clutch in or fully clutch out. The slipping happens anywhere in between. Is it more damaging (burning) to the clutch at higher RPM even if you release the clutch at the same rate you release it at lower RPM? Since when clutch travels between fully clutch in and fully clutch out, the higher RPM of engine say 6K will burn the clutch faster than when the engine is at lower RPM (3k?). Also is it true that as long as I release the clutch quickly and smoothly the damage to the clutch is very minimal even if the engine RPM is very high?

Thanks!
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by Prodigal Son »

Side1021 wrote:Is it more damaging (burning) to the clutch at higher RPM even if you release the clutch at the same rate you release it at lower RPM?
Clutch wear is proportional to the amount of torque difference between the clutch and the flywheel at the time it is release. It is not how high or how low the engine RMPs are, but how much torque differential exists between the clutch and the flywheel.

Given a high torque differential, it is better to release the clutch slowly rather than quickly, since this gives the clutch time to dissipate the heat that results from absorbing the torque differential.
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by StickIt »

Prodigal Son wrote:
Side1021 wrote:On another note, I've realized the higher RPM you go the more RPM needs to drop for the next gear. Does that mean the high you Rev up, the slow the shift (wait slightly before releasing clutch quickly. Quickly, not dumping it)?
Precisely. Though note that how long you have to wait will vary greatly from car to car. The revs on my Miata drop much faster than the revs on my Jetta do, and I have to snatch the shifts on the Miata to keep them smooth.
Prodigal Son, what do you mean by "snatching the shifts"? I am having trouble upshifting because the revs drop really fast and no matter how fast I try to move the shifter and then release the clutch I am too slow - the revs jump up a little when I fully engage the clutch. I am upshifting around 3000 RPM and I guess it is probably hardest going from 5th to 6th because of the small change in gear ratio.
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by Prodigal Son »

StickIt wrote:Prodigal Son, what do you mean by "snatching the shifts"?
I mean pulling the stick sharply from gear to gear, rather than pushing it leisurely as I do on my Jetta.

Sounds like the natural shift timing in your car occurs a little higher than 3000, either that or you are shifting slowly due to relative inexperience. Co-ordination of the clutch and the stick can be a problem on a quick shift. You can't release the clutch until the stick is in gear, but if you are having to snatch the shifts, you may not be co-coordinating the clutch release as closely to shift as you will be able to when you have more experience.

Remember, as far as shift timing is concerned, it is only the timing from when you let off the gas to when you re-engage the clutch that matters. How fast you move the stick is only important in the sense that you have to get it done before it is time to engage the clutch.

I forget what kind of car you drive, but it strikes me that this is yet another example of why it is a good idea not to try to learn stick in a sports car. They are set up for quick shifting and therefore require quick shifting. Since the best way to learn anything is to get the motions correct and then increase your speed, learning on a regular car that is set up for a more leisurely shifting pace is probably a good idea.
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by AHTOXA »

Prodigal Son wrote: Precisely. Though note that how long you have to wait will vary greatly from car to car. The revs on my Miata drop much faster than the revs on my Jetta do, and I have to snatch the shifts on the Miata to keep them smooth.

It stops accelerating when the ECU cuts fuel to the engine. Which will feel quite like slowing down.
On most cars I have driven since I've owned the Rabbit the revs dropped faster. For the first few shifts when driving my friend's cars I look like I don't really know what I'm doing.
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by StickIt »

Prodigal Son wrote:
StickIt wrote:Prodigal Son, what do you mean by "snatching the shifts"?
I forget what kind of car you drive, but it strikes me that this is yet another example of why it is a good idea not to try to learn stick in a sports car. They are set up for quick shifting and therefore require quick shifting. Since the best way to learn anything is to get the motions correct and then increase your speed, learning on a regular car that is set up for a more leisurely shifting pace is probably a good idea.
Yeah, too late, I already bought the sports car :( . I had heard from others with my same car that learned on it and said they were able to learn so hopefully I can figure it out.
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by Prodigal Son »

StickIt wrote:
Yeah, too late, I already bought the sports car :( . I had heard from others with my same car that learned on it and said they were able to learn so hopefully I can figure it out.
Well, yes, the problem you are going to have is that to learn the motions you are going to have to do them slowly, and the make them smooth you are going to have to do them fast.

The best thing I can suggest is that you have to learn the motions properly, which means doing them slowly, or you may learn them wrong and have a hard time unlearning them. So to avoid the bumps, you are going to have to let your clutch out slowly until the rest of the motions become second nature. Then you can start speeding up you shifts until you can do them fast enough to rev-match them properly, and then you can release the clutch faster.
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by hockeystyx16 »

wanna know what happens when you peg the limiter? warm it up, then plant it in 1st and hold it there. depending on how fast your car it it might feel like a stop in acceleration or feel like you just hit a brick wall
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by jomotopia »

yeah, it feels like hitting a brick wall in my car. scared the crap out of me the first time. :lol:
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by AHTOXA »

Never hit rev limited in my past 3 cars.
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Re: Upshift At Higher RPM

Post by Standardshifter »

brick wall at least with my car.
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