Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

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IMBoring25
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Re: Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

Post by IMBoring25 »

Direct drive really isn't great in one respect. The most even gear wear is obtained when the numbers of gear teeth on each gear have no common factors. Common factors in the numbers of gear teeth lead to a reduction in the number of teeth on the other gear that mesh with a given tooth. Direct drive is the maximum extreme of this case, as every time the geartrain rotates, each tooth meshes with the same tooth on the other gear.
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Re: Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

Post by ClutchFork »

IMBoring25 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:49 pm Direct drive really isn't great in one respect. The most even gear wear is obtained when the numbers of gear teeth on each gear have no common factors. Common factors in the numbers of gear teeth lead to a reduction in the number of teeth on the other gear that mesh with a given tooth. Direct drive is the maximum extreme of this case, as every time the geartrain rotates, each tooth meshes with the same tooth on the other gear.
So in direct drive 1:1 each cog gets equal wear. In any other ratio, underdrive or overdrive, and to keep it simple lets say underdrive at 2:1, then the input gear turns twice for the output gear turning once, which means the input gear will wear twice as fast as each tooth is meshing twice as much as the teeth on the output gear. So from the wear standpoint, 1:1 seems the most even as both gears wear at the same rate. Whether there is a wear differential then from the gear that is power driven vs the gear that is pushed (or effectively resisting), I don't know.

On the other hand most non-direct drive ratios will have the gear teeth varying so that they don't keep meeting at the same place every time around, which means the wear from each powered gear tooth will over X rotations distribute evenly among all the teeth on the driven gear. In this way, all the teeth should wear the same, vs on a 1:1 you might get variations around the gear since tooth #1 on the powered gear always meshes with tooth #1 on the driven gear (except that you take things apart and move it). The aforementioned example 2:1 ratio will have a similar situation except tooth #1 powered will mesh with tooth #1 and tooth #18 driven in alternation (assuming 18 teeth and 36 teeth for the 2:1 ratio).

So now am I ready for the automotive engineer exam? :lol:
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...
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Re: Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

Post by Rope-Pusher »

ClutchFork wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:14 pm
IMBoring25 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:49 pm Direct drive really isn't great in one respect. The most even gear wear is obtained when the numbers of gear teeth on each gear have no common factors. Common factors in the numbers of gear teeth lead to a reduction in the number of teeth on the other gear that mesh with a given tooth. Direct drive is the maximum extreme of this case, as every time the geartrain rotates, each tooth meshes with the same tooth on the other gear.
So in direct drive 1:1 each cog gets equal wear. In any other ratio, underdrive or overdrive, and to keep it simple lets say underdrive at 2:1, then the input gear turns twice for the output gear turning once, which means the input gear will wear twice as fast as each tooth is meshing twice as much as the teeth on the output gear. So from the wear standpoint, 1:1 seems the most even as both gears wear at the same rate. Whether there is a wear differential then from the gear that is power driven vs the gear that is pushed (or effectively resisting), I don't know.

On the other hand most non-direct drive ratios will have the gear teeth varying so that they don't keep meeting at the same place every time around, which means the wear from each powered gear tooth will over X rotations distribute evenly among all the teeth on the driven gear. In this way, all the teeth should wear the same, vs on a 1:1 you might get variations around the gear since tooth #1 on the powered gear always meshes with tooth #1 on the driven gear (except that you take things apart and move it). The aforementioned example 2:1 ratio will have a similar situation except tooth #1 powered will mesh with tooth #1 and tooth #18 driven in alternation (assuming 18 teeth and 36 teeth for the 2:1 ratio).

So now am I ready for the automotive engineer exam? :lol:
Most RWD Amish transmixers don't have a 1:1 gear ration inside them when they are 1:1. They just use a synchronizer hub and sleeve to lock the input shaft to the output shaft, so there are no gears involved in the transmission of torque.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCu9W9xNwtI[/youtube]
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Re: Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

Post by ClutchFork »

Rope-Pusher wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:35 pm
Most RWD Amish transmixers don't have a 1:1 gear ration inside them when they are 1:1. They just use a synchronizer hub and sleeve to lock the input shaft to the output shaft, so there are no gears involved in the transmission of torque.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCu9W9xNwtI[/youtube]
Well I sure flunked the auto engineer exam then. That is good to know and makes perfect sense now that you mention it. If it is 1:1 then the transmission is superfluous other than it has to be in the way for when you use other gears. Otherwise we could have the drive shaft directly out of the bell housing. Now if I was always going to drive on the expressway and there were not traffic jams and I always had a hill to get a running start on, it might work.

Actually a one-speed might work for an automatic if you give it enough torque multiplication in the converter. They did come close in the olden days with the 2-speed automatics, which were effectively 3-speeds when you consider the torque multiplication. FIrst car I ever looked at to potentially buy was a Oldsmobile with a rocket V8 and a 2-speed automatic. I was 17, it was the 1970s, and my dad pulled the dip stick, saw thick black oil, shoved it back in and said, no deal.
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...
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Re: Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

Post by Rope-Pusher »

ClutchFork wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:43 am
Rope-Pusher wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:35 pm
Most RWD Amish transmixers don't have a 1:1 gear ration inside them when they are 1:1. They just use a synchronizer hub and sleeve to lock the input shaft to the output shaft, so there are no gears involved in the transmission of torque.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCu9W9xNwtI[/youtube]
Well I sure flunked the auto engineer exam then. That is good to know and makes perfect sense now that you mention it. If it is 1:1 then the transmission is superfluous other than it has to be in the way for when you use other gears. Otherwise we could have the drive shaft directly out of the bell housing. Now if I was always going to drive on the expressway and there were not traffic jams and I always had a hill to get a running start on, it might work.

Actually a one-speed might work for an automatic if you give it enough torque multiplication in the converter. They did come close in the olden days with the 2-speed automatics, which were effectively 3-speeds when you consider the torque multiplication. FIrst car I ever looked at to potentially buy was a Oldsmobile with a rocket V8 and a 2-speed automatic. I was 17, it was the 1970s, and my dad pulled the dip stick, saw thick black oil, shoved it back in and said, no deal.
The Gubmint doesn't require more than 1 gear range, but if there is more than one forward gear ratio, then there MUST be a provision for downshifting manually (to help manage speed on downhill runs).
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Re: Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

Post by ClutchFork »

Rope-Pusher wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:05 am
The Gubmint doesn't require more than 1 gear range, but if there is more than one forward gear ratio, then there MUST be a provision for downshifting manually (to help manage speed on downhill runs).
Seems I recall years ago seeing signs in the Rocky Mountains warning people to keep the car in gear, probably back in the day when there were a lot more manuals out there. I will sometimes pop it into neutral and coast to a light, but for sure in the steep mountain roads or any appreciable hill here in Michigan, one definitely should not be rolling along in neutral.
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...
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Re: Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

Post by Rope-Pusher »

ClutchFork wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:51 pm
Rope-Pusher wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:05 am
The Gubmint doesn't require more than 1 gear range, but if there is more than one forward gear ratio, then there MUST be a provision for downshifting manually (to help manage speed on downhill runs).
Seems I recall years ago seeing signs in the Rocky Mountains warning people to keep the car in gear, probably back in the day when there were a lot more manuals out there. I will sometimes pop it into neutral and coast to a light, but for sure in the steep mountain roads or any appreciable hill here in Michigan, one definitely should not be rolling along in neutral.
Tooth Hings:
1) I think there can be a problem in trying to shift into a gear ratio as the vehicle coasts faster and faster downhill....maybe more-so before multi-cone synchronizers became the norm.
2) If you climb a hill in a lower gear and then press down on the clutch pedal as you coast down the other side, you risk exploding the clutch disk as it overrevs. Most clutches can only be counted on to spin up to ~150% of engine redline speed before they burst.
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Re: Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

Post by ClutchFork »

Rope-Pusher wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:10 pm Tooth Hings:
1) I think there can be a problem in trying to shift into a gear ratio as the vehicle coasts faster and faster downhill....maybe more-so before multi-cone synchronizers became the norm.
2) If you climb a hill in a lower gear and then press down on the clutch pedal as you coast down the other side, you risk exploding the clutch disk as it overrevs. Most clutches can only be counted on to spin up to ~150% of engine redline speed before they burst.
Oh no not tooth. I have had more than a lifetime of tooth trouble and more to come.

But for the clutch, i recall was it Mickey Thompson or some other drag racer whose foot was severed by an exploding clutch.

Hey, what happens to the rider if a piston on the back cylinder of a V-twin bike makes for the sky?

I have to rack my brain or look some things up on the inner workings of the tranny clutch assembly to understand why it spins faster with clutch pedal depressed as then the input shaft should turn the disk, where as in neutral the engine would turn the disk. Actually with the clutch pedal up and in neutral the disk is clamped down so should be less prone to explode since the momentum is being carried more by the pressure plate/flywheel and the disk is just along for the ride like a baby wrapped snugly in a blanket? So that alone could explain something (not sure what).
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...
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Re: Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

Post by IMBoring25 »

Right on the money that, with the clutch disengaged the input shaft turns the clutch disc...Through the ratio of the selected gear, so if you build a lot of speed downhill with a gear inappropriate for the speed you wind up going selected, you can mechanically overrev the clutch.

That's if you're lucky. Those trying to hot-rod around and trying abusive driving techniques that involve forcing the shifter into gear can select the wrong gear, miss the fact that resistance is much greater than it should be as they're forcing the shifter in anyway, and mechanically overrev the engine.
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Re: Cartridge Oil Filter--Fram 20K vs. K&N

Post by ClutchFork »

IMBoring25 wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:31 pm Right on the money that, with the clutch disengaged the input shaft turns the clutch disc...Through the ratio of the selected gear, so if you build a lot of speed downhill with a gear inappropriate for the speed you wind up going selected, you can mechanically overrev the clutch.

That's if you're lucky. Those trying to hot-rod around and trying abusive driving techniques that involve forcing the shifter into gear can select the wrong gear, miss the fact that resistance is much greater than it should be as they're forcing the shifter in anyway, and mechanically overrev the engine.
In other words, one can have more fun blowing up a manual than blowing up an automatic, just watch your feet! :lol:

Though I once revved an automatic (maybe too high) while in gear and blew out the seal and it puked ATF all over the ground.

I have accidentally put a manual in first when going for third and it whined a good bit and jerked me slow, but thankfully I was not going fast enough for real damage.

The real horror is throwing it into reverse while going at speed forward. Not sure though what it would do to an automatic, maybe blow the seal, maybe mangle the vanes on the impeller in the slush stirrer.

I did once throw an automatic in park doing maybe 15 mph and it sounded like a loud ratchet until I came to a very jerky stop.
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theholycow wrote:Why in the world would you even want to be as smooth as an automatic? Might as well just drive an automatic...
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