New Member - First-time Manual Driver

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Teamwork
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by Teamwork »

What year was the Corolla- just curious? Yeah the car's that I pretty much rolled around in parking lots and people trusted me with all had a clutch engagement point that was fairly close in travel from being fully floored. I'd literally have to "roll off" a few inches and I was already in it. I felt like I needed a ruler though for my VW- it kind of threw me off from what I was expecting. Muscle memory developed but I'd say that a TON of the MK7 (and other MK's) use a clutch stop that reduces the throw significantly. At least 50-60% so it seems on the club forums but I kind of gotten scared about using one for mechanical reasoning. The point being this clutch stop has been around since the MK5 days, used within the MK6, and still getting used at the MK7 so it's not like my opinion on the matter is 'foreign' or far fetched.
Let me clarify about the no-gas launches: once I'm at the friction point, I can fully roll off the clutch in 3 seconds without it shaking or stalling. I just wanted to make sure that that amount of time isn't bad for the car (although I realize that no-gas launches are fairly kind to the car and take a little longer than revving the engine first).
No that should be fine if even a bit longer... you need to slip in 1st gear to get things going naturally. It isn't an on/off switch so do it as long as you like which doesn't feel like overkill. 3 seconds it barely overkill... if you're getting a buck, juddering, or even stalling it most likely isn't being slipped long enough. My mentality is literally whenever I jack rabbit or buck is I typically am not slipping it long enough or getting anxious. Holding it for a fraction of a second longer could determine if I'm smooth or jerky.
That's interesting that I've managed no-gas launches around Queens and Brooklyn so far without going too slow. I will admit, though, that I'm hyper-vigilant about watching cross traffic, so I'll start my no-gas launch a little before everyone else starts moving.
I'd say the disclaimer here is you're "jumping the light/traffic" so you're probably already fully engaged into 1st at the point where people (in autos) are just getting on the gas. In situations where you cant see the cross light pattern or jump start I'd be curious to see what happens. I don't add a ton of gas but I typically feel like I need the gas in order to stay and keep up with how quick things move. Do whatever works for you though for sure... we drive different cars and people drive differently. I just really never got accustomed to no-gas launches except in really slow moving scenarios.
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by MH86 »

Teamwork wrote:What year was the Corolla- just curious? Yeah the car's that I pretty much rolled around in parking lots and people trusted me with all had a clutch engagement point that was fairly close in travel from being fully floored. I'd literally have to "roll off" a few inches and I was already in it. I felt like I needed a ruler though for my VW- it kind of threw me off from what I was expecting. Muscle memory developed but I'd say that a TON of the MK7 (and other MK's) use a clutch stop that reduces the throw significantly. At least 50-60% so it seems on the club forums but I kind of gotten scared about using one for mechanical reasoning. The point being this clutch stop has been around since the MK5 days, used within the MK6, and still getting used at the MK7 so it's not like my opinion on the matter is 'foreign' or far fetched.
That Corolla was about an '04 I wanna say; it's that body style.
Let me clarify about the no-gas launches: once I'm at the friction point, I can fully roll off the clutch in 3 seconds without it shaking or stalling. I just wanted to make sure that that amount of time isn't bad for the car (although I realize that no-gas launches are fairly kind to the car and take a little longer than revving the engine first).
No that should be fine if even a bit longer... you need to slip in 1st gear to get things going naturally. It isn't an on/off switch so do it as long as you like which doesn't feel like overkill. 3 seconds it barely overkill... if you're getting a buck, juddering, or even stalling it most likely isn't being slipped long enough. My mentality is literally whenever I jack rabbit or buck is I typically am not slipping it long enough or getting anxious. Holding it for a fraction of a second longer could determine if I'm smooth or jerky.

OK, whew! I just wanted to make sure that I'm not riding the clutch. I definitely keep my foot on the dead pedal when I'm off the clutch. But I already encountered situations on my way home from work today where I partially slipped the clutch to move forward with traffic.
I'd say the disclaimer here is you're "jumping the light/traffic" so you're probably already fully engaged into 1st at the point where people (in autos) are just getting on the gas. In situations where you cant see the cross light pattern or jump start I'd be curious to see what happens. I don't add a ton of gas but I typically feel like I need the gas in order to stay and keep up with how quick things move. Do whatever works for you though for sure... we drive different cars and people drive differently. I just really never got accustomed to no-gas launches except in really slow moving scenarios.
Today, most of my launches were of the no-gas variety, but I have experimented with adding a few revs (~1100 rpm or so) to move off the line quicker. I feel like my launches are much smoother with no gas though. Regardless though, I feel like manual cars move off the line slower than automatics in traffic. In fact, I can often spot when I'm behind a manual car since there tends to be a slight pause between their brake lights going off and them actually moving.
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by IMBoring25 »

If you're no-gas launching you definitely will move off more slowly than anyone else. Everything in that last paragraph comes down to technique. Launching with throttle can be done smoothly, faster than most, and simultaneously with the brake lights going off. All it takes is practice, and caring to refine the techniques.
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by MH86 »

IMBoring25 wrote:If you're no-gas launching you definitely will move off more slowly than anyone else. Everything in that last paragraph comes down to technique. Launching with throttle can be done smoothly, faster than most, and simultaneously with the brake lights going off. All it takes is practice, and caring to refine the techniques.
Oh yeah, I know I have a ways to go with refining my technique. My goal for the next time I drive is to move off the line a little quicker.
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by Teamwork »

That Corolla was about an '04 I wanna say; it's that body style.
XRS or garden variety Corolla? I was going to say I really don't know of many set ups of a Corolla with a manual of recent generations except really, real, strippers.
Today, most of my launches were of the no-gas variety, but I have experimented with adding a few revs (~1100 rpm or so) to move off the line quicker. I feel like my launches are much smoother with no gas though. Regardless though, I feel like manual cars move off the line slower than automatics in traffic. In fact, I can often spot when I'm behind a manual car since there tends to be a slight pause between their brake lights going off and them actually moving.
I believe you man because if you didn't get away with what you are doing... well NY is relentless. If it works for you I'd keep it up honestly... You could def launch fairly smooth when adding revs though. You're adding variables and more things to factor in (more things to screw up) so it will probably really take practice. You probably won't be able to set the gas perfect all the time (I still don't always either). It'll sound like an oxymoron after I say how this entire state is an exercise of impatience but you really need to be patient with processes. Slip 1st gear and assess what's going on... are you jack rabbiting, jerking, or relatively smooth? If your burning up your clutch you will definitely be met with a fairly distinct smell. Are you getting off the line at a slower pace then mom in a Chrysler Town and Country? Are you keeping up with the pace of traffic?
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by MH86 »

Teamwork wrote:
That Corolla was about an '04 I wanna say; it's that body style.
XRS or garden variety Corolla? I was going to say I really don't know of many set ups of a Corolla with a manual of recent generations except really, real, strippers.
It was a Corolla S, which has the same engine as the base Corolla.
Today, most of my launches were of the no-gas variety, but I have experimented with adding a few revs (~1100 rpm or so) to move off the line quicker. I feel like my launches are much smoother with no gas though. Regardless though, I feel like manual cars move off the line slower than automatics in traffic. In fact, I can often spot when I'm behind a manual car since there tends to be a slight pause between their brake lights going off and them actually moving.
I believe you man because if you didn't get away with what you are doing... well NY is relentless. If it works for you I'd keep it up honestly... You could def launch fairly smooth when adding revs though. You're adding variables and more things to factor in (more things to screw up) so it will probably really take practice. You probably won't be able to set the gas perfect all the time (I still don't always either). It'll sound like an oxymoron after I say how this entire state is an exercise of impatience but you really need to be patient with processes. Slip 1st gear and assess what's going on... are you jack rabbiting, jerking, or relatively smooth? If your burning up your clutch you will definitely be met with a fairly distinct smell. Are you getting off the line at a slower pace then mom in a Chrysler Town and Country? Are you keeping up with the pace of traffic?
This morning, I tried adding revs and stalled on my first attempt. I have to get used to the fact that the clutch and the accelerator can be used together. Of course it goes without saying that I got moving way quicker when I didn't overthink things and just let my feet do their thing. I have a slight phobia of over-reving, but in reality I never revved above 2000 rpm.

Not once have I encountered the burning clutch smell. I'm pretty sure I'd notice it immediately.
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by Rope-Pusher »

I could see where an optimally-timed no-gas launch might lead to being the first car across the intersection compared to a lot of people who wait for the green light BEFORE they even begin to check out the cross-street traffic and plan what they might do next.

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MH86
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by MH86 »

I just wanted to give an update:

Today I started to get the hang of revving the engine before I let out the clutch. While I did stall today, it was in bumper-to-bumper traffic at a point where I had no business moving forward but decided to attempt a no-gas launch anyway. My drive home today had more traffic than usual, which gave me lots of practice in waiting till the car in front of me moved enough, shifting into first, and revving the engine while letting out the clutch. I'm still not perfectly smooth with it, but I finally don't feel like I'm being passed by soccer moms in minivans.

I also parallel parked on a hill (considering I live in Forest Hills, that scenario was bound to happen sooner or later) and rather quickly figured out how to use the handbrake to keep me from rolling back into the car behind me (for some reason, hill start assist didn't really help in that situation).

I have a ways to go before I can even remotely be considered proficient, but my nerves are starting to ease and I'm starting to have fun going through the gears and revving the engine away from stops.
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by tankinbeans »

I've been at it for 4 years, with a 1 year hiatus, and I'm still bodging things frequently. I wouldn't worry too much. My parallel technique on hills is pretty straight forward; I park somewhere else. Haha

Today I played lazy and stayed in 2nd for most of my drive from work.
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by MH86 »

tankinbeans wrote:I've been at it for 4 years, with a 1 year hiatus, and I'm still bodging things frequently. I wouldn't worry too much. My parallel technique on hills is pretty straight forward; I park somewhere else. Haha
Haha, not all of us have that luxury of avoiding hills. For what it's worth, I parked on a slight hill; I'll work my way up to the steeper hills soon :D
Today I played lazy and stayed in 2nd for most of my drive from work.
I'm still getting a hang of which gear is best for creeping in traffic. Is it OK to periodically press and release the clutch to maintain momentum? I've heard of that technique in traffic but I don't want to do it if it will destroy the clutch.
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by tankinbeans »

Pressing and releasing clutch is fine. I pulse and glide as the situation necessitates. From what I've gathered and read it's heat that is the worst for the clutch. My thought is that you're rarely revving high enough while modulating the clutch in traffic to develop much heat, unless you ride the clutch while partially slipping for an extended period of time.

If you're not smelling anything you're probably fine.
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Teamwork
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by Teamwork »

MH86 wrote:I just wanted to give an update:

Today I started to get the hang of revving the engine before I let out the clutch. While I did stall today, it was in bumper-to-bumper traffic at a point where I had no business moving forward but decided to attempt a no-gas launch anyway. My drive home today had more traffic than usual, which gave me lots of practice in waiting till the car in front of me moved enough, shifting into first, and revving the engine while letting out the clutch. I'm still not perfectly smooth with it, but I finally don't feel like I'm being passed by soccer moms in minivans.

I also parallel parked on a hill (considering I live in Forest Hills, that scenario was bound to happen sooner or later) and rather quickly figured out how to use the handbrake to keep me from rolling back into the car behind me (for some reason, hill start assist didn't really help in that situation).

I have a ways to go before I can even remotely be considered proficient, but my nerves are starting to ease and I'm starting to have fun going through the gears and revving the engine away from stops.
Oh wow you're from Forest Hills? Well I have to give you points and kudos... I have a best friend from LI who recently moved out there. It's really a nightmare for driving. That means you most likely frequent the Belt and the your road conditions are even in worse conditions then eastern LI.

Obviously in Forest Hills there's a ton of hills so you're going to get really acquainted really early on I feel like. Aside from that you're most likely driving really brutal stretches of jam packed, over congested areas... I couldn't even imagine. Do you work a normal hour job where the roads turn into parking lots out there? I really do have to applaud you and hope you stay committed. I'm a little intrigued that adding gas to the equation makes you stall. I'm thinking that your left foot and right foot aren't cooperating together if that is the case. Only speculating and not saying for fact but I'd assume that when you focus on no gas launches you can divert full attention on your left foot and making precise and guided movements but when you add your right foot with your left that something is getting thrown off (maybe your left moves quicker when trying to balance with the right?).

I just got stuck in some bad crawling traffic and really used the time to practice no gas launches again and pulsing and gliding. Think of bad traffic in the beginning as a learning opportunity as it forces you to do a ton of 1st gear "launches".

I forgot to mention also and really just completely forgot that during my first week of driving I relied on the hand brake for this hill that I encounter pretty much 5 times a week. I was nervous so I just "tried it out" and it ended up working. Honestly, just randomly over time I stopped using it and just used the hill assist. It was pretty impulsively done but in the beginning I did guide the hand brake down- kind of made me feel secure in a way. I haven't done that in probably 10 months at this point though.

That's really another reason why I'm curious and intrigued about your take on "no gas launches". If you have to frequently encounter hills you surely have to use some sort of gas to guide yourself and pull yourself up an inline.
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by MH86 »

Teamwork wrote:
MH86 wrote:I just wanted to give an update:

Today I started to get the hang of revving the engine before I let out the clutch. While I did stall today, it was in bumper-to-bumper traffic at a point where I had no business moving forward but decided to attempt a no-gas launch anyway. My drive home today had more traffic than usual, which gave me lots of practice in waiting till the car in front of me moved enough, shifting into first, and revving the engine while letting out the clutch. I'm still not perfectly smooth with it, but I finally don't feel like I'm being passed by soccer moms in minivans.

I also parallel parked on a hill (considering I live in Forest Hills, that scenario was bound to happen sooner or later) and rather quickly figured out how to use the handbrake to keep me from rolling back into the car behind me (for some reason, hill start assist didn't really help in that situation).

I have a ways to go before I can even remotely be considered proficient, but my nerves are starting to ease and I'm starting to have fun going through the gears and revving the engine away from stops.
Oh wow you're from Forest Hills? Well I have to give you points and kudos... I have a best friend from LI who recently moved out there. It's really a nightmare for driving. That means you most likely frequent the Belt and the your road conditions are even in worse conditions then eastern LI.
Haha, thanks. I'm originally from Brooklyn, so I'm used to traffic. I must say, though, that eastern LI isn't always that perfect either. I used to work at a job that was just over the Suffolk County border, and traffic there wasn't better by much.
Obviously in Forest Hills there's a ton of hills so you're going to get really acquainted really early on I feel like. Aside from that you're most likely driving really brutal stretches of jam packed, over congested areas... I couldn't even imagine. Do you work a normal hour job where the roads turn into parking lots out there? I really do have to applaud you and hope you stay committed.
Thanks for your encouragement. I work a normal 9-5, but I tend to get to work around 8 to beat traffic (I did that even when I drove an automatic). The past few days, I've been leaving work around 4:50, but that didn't lessen traffic by much. Speaking of hills, I'm renting a driveway spot a few blocks from my place that I park in when I can't find a spot on my block. To get out of that driveway, I have to go up a slight incline. So far, converting my no-gas launch to a gas-assisted launch has worked fine.
I'm a little intrigued that adding gas to the equation makes you stall. I'm thinking that your left foot and right foot aren't cooperating together if that is the case. Only speculating and not saying for fact but I'd assume that when you focus on no gas launches you can divert full attention on your left foot and making precise and guided movements but when you add your right foot with your left that something is getting thrown off (maybe your left moves quicker when trying to balance with the right?).
You hit the nail on the head there. As I was saying, yesterday I made myself do some gas launches, and my left foot is starting to understand that even with some revs, I need to pause on the friction point momentarily.
I just got stuck in some bad crawling traffic and really used the time to practice no gas launches again and pulsing and gliding. Think of bad traffic in the beginning as a learning opportunity as it forces you to do a ton of 1st gear "launches".
Very much so. Yesterday I was stuck in crazy traffic on the Northern State Parkway heading back home. It helped alleviate my fears that I was leaving too much space in front of me (nobody really tried to cut into the half a car length I left in front of me).
I forgot to mention also and really just completely forgot that during my first week of driving I relied on the hand brake for this hill that I encounter pretty much 5 times a week. I was nervous so I just "tried it out" and it ended up working. Honestly, just randomly over time I stopped using it and just used the hill assist. It was pretty impulsively done but in the beginning I did guide the hand brake down- kind of made me feel secure in a way. I haven't done that in probably 10 months at this point though.
For now, I'm purposely avoiding a part of my commute that's rather hilly (near North Shore LIJ - those steep hills near the LIE), but I don't typically take that route anyway. At some point, I'll force myself to drive that way.
That's really another reason why I'm curious and intrigued about your take on "no gas launches". If you have to frequently encounter hills you surely have to use some sort of gas to guide yourself and pull yourself up an inline.
Weirdly enough, I've been OK with adding some gas at the friction point on inclines. Yesterday, though, I became slightly more comfortable with the idea that I might roll back a tiny amount while I'm revving/letting the clutch up. I mean, my previous car (a Nissan Rogue) rolled back on hills, and that was a CVT. My biggest problem with adding gas before lifting the clutch was that I wasn't waiting long enough for the cars in front of me to move, so of course I'd be afraid of accelerating into them.

Interestingly enough, I've been seeing a lot of manual cars in my neighborhood parked on the streets. Whenever I see those, it reminds me that I can do it too. I also keep reminding myself that in other parts of the world, people of all ages daily drive manual cars with not much of a thought to it.
MH86
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by MH86 »

tankinbeans wrote:Pressing and releasing clutch is fine. I pulse and glide as the situation necessitates. From what I've gathered and read it's heat that is the worst for the clutch. My thought is that you're rarely revving high enough while modulating the clutch in traffic to develop much heat, unless you ride the clutch while partially slipping for an extended period of time.

If you're not smelling anything you're probably fine.
OK, I thought so. As I've said, I'm pretty sure I'd .have smelled burning clutch by now if that was happening. Thanks for answering all these seemingly simple questions (not just you, everyone else on here as well).
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Re: New Member - First-time Manual Driver

Post by Teamwork »

Thanks for your encouragement. I work a normal 9-5, but I tend to get to work around 8 to beat traffic (I did that even when I drove an automatic). The past few days, I've been leaving work around 4:50, but that didn't lessen traffic by much. Speaking of hills, I'm renting a driveway spot a few blocks from my place that I park in when I can't find a spot on my block. To get out of that driveway, I have to go up a slight incline. So far, converting my no-gas launch to a gas-assisted launch has worked fine.
In my experience around where I live and travel which is pretty much in the middle of Nassau County there's like a true rhyme and reason to the sweet spot. If I leave my house and am out on the road by 7:00-7:40 am there really is minimal traffic. As soon as it's 7:45 am-8:30 am though... dying. It's literally almost like in that window everyone and their mother is using EVERY major highway on Long Island. If I have to drive anywhere period though between the times of 4:30 pm-6:30 pm to drive back home... my door to door time increases pretty much 50%+. This most of the time has nothing to do with an accident/road work if anyone outside this state is reading this. This is merely overpopulation/congestion and no other variable. It's disgusting.
You hit the nail on the head there. As I was saying, yesterday I made myself do some gas launches, and my left foot is starting to understand that even with some revs, I need to pause on the friction point momentarily.
Naturally when you add more 'working parts' and variables- there is more to go wrong. I pretty much just related what would happen to me... trying to balance both of feet and get them to work together was difficult at first. A long with no gas launches you should quicker kind of practice "setting the gas" to certain rpm levels so you can have an idea of how much pressure needs to be applied for a range of rpm. Just sit in your car with the parking brake up and without using clutch at all just practice setting the gas at certain rpms. For my car in particular when I set the gas simultaneously I'm really only bringing the revs slightly over idle- nothing too crazy like 1200-1400 rpms.
For now, I'm purposely avoiding a part of my commute that's rather hilly (near North Shore LIJ - those steep hills near the LIE), but I don't typically take that route anyway. At some point, I'll force myself to drive that way.
I am familiar and I would do the same if it's avoidable. Honestly the exit ramp that I have to take for my job is a "moderate hill" with a traffic light at the very top. Sometimes I literally have to wait 2 cycles of lights because it doesn't allow enough of the high way to come onto the main road. When I was new I seriously feared this but my hand was forced. I had no way around it so I got pretty acquainted fairly fast. I probably sprung some grey hairs though in the first few months.
Weirdly enough, I've been OK with adding some gas at the friction point on inclines. Yesterday, though, I became slightly more comfortable with the idea that I might roll back a tiny amount while I'm revving/letting the clutch up. I mean, my previous car (a Nissan Rogue) rolled back on hills, and that was a CVT. My biggest problem with adding gas before lifting the clutch was that I wasn't waiting long enough for the cars in front of me to move, so of course I'd be afraid of accelerating into them.

Interestingly enough, I've been seeing a lot of manual cars in my neighborhood parked on the streets. Whenever I see those, it reminds me that I can do it too. I also keep reminding myself that in other parts of the world, people of all ages daily drive manual cars with not much of a thought to it.
Great points being made here and I really just agree. My girlfriend has a lot of relatives in Glen Cove which is another town that is extremely HILLY. Like, will roll back in an automatic at 5 mph + hilly if you don't do anything (I know because I tested it). Still even through the worst areas of Long Island in my mind for driving manual... you still see an abundance of Civic SI's, WRX's, EVOs, which only come in manual. Like I said one of my best friends lives in Forest Hills now and he actually camera shotted an old Hyundai Accent with this sticker on his (her?) car. http://www.amazon.com/Driving-Stick-Shi ... A0SXXP8BBD
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