New Car and New to Manuals

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Shutout89
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New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Shutout89 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:52 pm

Hello everyone,

I've been stalking these forums after buying my first manual transmission car in the beginning of July, and gaining a wealth of knowledge. I've learned so much from the other members on this forum (as well as howstuffworks) which has helped me get better at driving.

Now I have a few questions about my experiences while driving so far.

1. Once while at a stop sign on a slight incline I was about to launch and didnt give enough gas. For some reason I panicked and dumped the clutch and stalled... but i heard a loud like DONG sound. This was a while ago when i first got the car and I dont think it caused a problem but what was the sound and could it have harmed anything?

2. When I back out of the driveway in the morning and shift from reverse back to neutral and let off the clutch my engine revs high to like 2500rpm. Does anyone have a clue as to why?

3. Sometimes when shifting into 1st the sifter goes in smoother than other times. Say in at a stoplight and i know im about tostart going ill put the clutch down and put the car in 1st and it wont be a smooth transition... the ill go back to neutral and then back into 1st and it will be smooth. Is this normal?

4. And last I understand what synchros do but am having a hard time visualizing how they actually work while im doing everything else with the gear selector and clutch. now my question is say i am going to make a 90 degree turn and am in 3rd i brake to a slow enough speed downshift into 2nd. Now when i put the clutch in and shift are the synchros working while the clutchis in? (assuming I'm not revmatching)

Sorry about the LONG post but its great to be here and appreciate the help in advance!
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Shadow
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Shadow » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:24 pm

Shutout89 wrote:Hello everyone,

I've been stalking these forums after buying my first manual transmission car in the beginning of July, and gaining a wealth of knowledge. I've learned so much from the other members on this forum (as well as howstuffworks) which has helped me get better at driving.

Now I have a few questions about my experiences while driving so far.

1. Once while at a stop sign on a slight incline I was about to launch and didnt give enough gas. For some reason I panicked and dumped the clutch and stalled... but i heard a loud like DONG sound. This was a while ago when i first got the car and I dont think it caused a problem but what was the sound and could it have harmed anything?

2. When I back out of the driveway in the morning and shift from reverse back to neutral and let off the clutch my engine revs high to like 2500rpm. Does anyone have a clue as to why?

3. Sometimes when shifting into 1st the sifter goes in smoother than other times. Say in at a stoplight and i know im about tostart going ill put the clutch down and put the car in 1st and it wont be a smooth transition... the ill go back to neutral and then back into 1st and it will be smooth. Is this normal?

4. And last I understand what synchros do but am having a hard time visualizing how they actually work while im doing everything else with the gear selector and clutch. now my question is say i am going to make a 90 degree turn and am in 3rd i brake to a slow enough speed downshift into 2nd. Now when i put the clutch in and shift are the synchros working while the clutchis in? (assuming I'm not revmatching)

Sorry about the LONG post but its great to be here and appreciate the help in advance!
Welcome to the forum!

1- Not sure what a "DONG" sounds like (LOL), but I wouldn't worry too much about it. Chances are good that you didn't cause any damage to anything.

2- The engine revving to 2500 rpm sounds strange to me. Where does your engine idle before the engine is at full operating temp? BTW, what kind of car do you drive?

3- Are you completely stopped when you move the gearshift level into 1st gear?

4- The sychros are basically matching up speeds. In order to visualize it, you have to understand that your transmission is constant mesh, meaning that the gears are always meshed together. So as you're shifting from one gear to the next, the job of the synchros is to synchronize the speeds to allow for an easy transition from one gear to the next.
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Squint » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:44 pm

First, welcome! Second, I'll answer what I can and let the more engineer-y people answer more...
Shutout89 wrote:2. When I back out of the driveway in the morning and shift from reverse back to neutral and let off the clutch my engine revs high to like 2500rpm. Does anyone have a clue as to why?
Dumb question, but did you remove your foot from the accelerator? Not trying to be offensive, but sometimes you might be removing your foot from the gas slightly after removing your foot from the clutch. Which is pretty much like reverse rev-matching. I know I've done it once or twice while shifting and been like... what??? Oh wait, it was me...
Shutout89 wrote:3. Sometimes when shifting into 1st the sifter goes in smoother than other times. Say in at a stoplight and i know im about tostart going ill put the clutch down and put the car in 1st and it wont be a smooth transition... the ill go back to neutral and then back into 1st and it will be smooth. Is this normal?
In a word, yes. First gear (and first to second shift) is always the worst shift in terms of shock unless you're doing something VERY wrong. My first reaction to the issue is your rev's aren't exactly matching what the engine would like to be doing at _____ time. Which is normal to not hit it exactly without driving a vehicle for long periods of time. You'd have to know where your engine likes to idle, with the AC on and off, and how it runs fairly well in order to not get shock of some kind at least once in a while going to first gear.
See if others have input on this situation too...
Shutout89 wrote:4. And last I understand what synchros do but am having a hard time visualizing how they actually work while im doing everything else with the gear selector and clutch. now my question is say i am going to make a 90 degree turn and am in 3rd i brake to a slow enough speed downshift into 2nd. Now when i put the clutch in and shift are the synchros working while the clutchis in? (assuming I'm not revmatching)
Think of it this way: every time your foot is all the way down on the clutch, your transmission isn't connected to the engine. The synchronizers work with each gear to help match up the speed at which the engine is spinning to the speed the transmission needs to be spinning. If there weren't syncho's you would have to shift into neutral between each gear (which is a different kind of transmission all together). The synchro's help make up for the fact that we can't rev-match perfectly.

And wait for Rope-Pusher and The Holy Cow to come in and explain all the engineer-y stuff better than I can...

EDIT: Dang it Shadow, I had to walk away from my desk before I could finish this and you ninja posted above me...
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Shutout89
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Shutout89 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:33 pm

Shadow wrote:1- Not sure what a "DONG" sounds like (LOL)
Hahaha i didn't realize how that sounded lol
Shadow wrote:2- The engine revving to 2500 rpm sounds strange to me. Where does your engine idle before the engine is at full operating temp? BTW, what kind of car do you drive?
It idles at about 1500rpm before its warm, and its a 2011 WRX
Shadow wrote:3- Are you completely stopped when you move the gearshift level into 1st gear?
It does it when im completley stopped or when still slightly rolling.
Squint wrote: Dumb question, but did you remove your foot from the accelerator? Not trying to be offensive, but sometimes you might be removing your foot from the gas slightly after removing your foot from the clutch. Which is pretty much like reverse rev-matching. I know I've done it once or twice while shifting and been like... what??? Oh wait, it was me...
Thats the first thing I thought of as well, but my foot was off the gas pedal when it occured
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Shadow » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:26 pm

Squint wrote: EDIT: Dang it Shadow, I had to walk away from my desk before I could finish this and you ninja posted above me...
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by theholycow » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:40 pm

1. Your dong might have been your exhaust whacking something from the violent shaking of the engine as you stalled. Whatever it was, I agree with the other posters, you'd know if something was broken.

2. Drive-by-wire throttle is to blame. Your accelerator pedal isn't connected to the throttle like in older cars. Instead, it's only connected to the computer. The computer thinks it's smarter than you and knows what you want better than you do. It's wrong.

3. Describe "won't be a smooth transition". Do you mean that it won't let you into the gear or that it grinds? I wouldn't expect either behavior from a 2011 anything. In an older or more worn transmission I would. In neutral with the clutch pedal up, the clutch spins at the same RPM as the engine. At a stop the gears are going 0 RPM. 1st gear's synchro has to stop the clutch entirely.

I often use 2nd gear's synchro to stop the clutch before putting it into 1st. I'm told that 2nd gear often has the best synchro in the whole transmission. Anyway it seems to help. I hold it against 2nd as if I'm trying to shift into 2nd but I then shift to 1st before it gets into 2nd. When you try to get into 1st then quit and try again you do approximately the same thing.

4. Yes, the synchros are operating while the clutch pedal is down and you are shifting. They match the clutch's speed to the gear's speed.
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Shutout89 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:40 pm

theholycow wrote: 3. Describe "won't be a smooth transition". Do you mean that it won't let you into the gear or that it grinds? I wouldn't expect either behavior from a 2011 anything. In an older or more worn transmission I would. In neutral with the clutch pedal up, the clutch spins at the same RPM as the engine. At a stop the gears are going 0 RPM. 1st gear's synchro has to stop the clutch entirely.

I often use 2nd gear's synchro to stop the clutch before putting it into 1st. I'm told that 2nd gear often has the best synchro in the whole transmission. Anyway it seems to help. I hold it against 2nd as if I'm trying to shift into 2nd but I then shift to 1st before it gets into 2nd. When you try to get into 1st then quit and try again you do approximately the same thing.
What I mean by smooth transition is that more force has to be used to get the shifter into the 1st gear position, there is no grind and i can get the lever into the gear but it takes some finesse. Now if I do it this way (more force and finesse)then with the clutch still disengaged (and not moving)move the lever out of 1st and back into 1st it just pops in easily.
So is the resistance I'm feeling possibly the synchros stopping the clutch then, once its stopped when I take the car out of and back into gear it is easier?
theholycow wrote: In neutral with the clutch pedal up, the clutch spins at the same RPM as the engine. At a stop the gears are going 0 RPM. 1st gear's synchro has to stop the clutch entirely.
I dont get how the synchro effects the clutch I cant visualize it
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Rope-Pusher » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:08 pm

I agree with the Moo-Man that the "Dong" noise is probably the exhaust pipe hitting something as the powertrain twisted in it's rubber mounts. Fuggetaboutit!

As far as shifting into 1st being smoother/easier the 2nd time (while sitting at a light) - yes, the first shift into 1st, the synchro sleeve and the blocker ring weren't aligned. After you overcame this resistance and pushed it into 1st, the pieces stayed in rotational alignment even after you pulled it out of gear to Neutral (assuming you still had the clutch pedal buried). If you had then shifted into lets say 2nd gear ("2nd gear" - doesn't it feel better to have said that?) it may have changed the rotational alignment such that going back into 1st would have felt rough again, since in order to get into 2nd gear there may have needed to be some rotational indexing as well. Some times, it is possible that 1st and 2nd, 3rd and 4th, or 5th and 6th can both be aligned at the same time, but that is more unusual than the case where only one gear of each pair can be aligned to the synchro sleeve at a time.
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Shadow » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:13 pm

theholycow wrote:
2. Drive-by-wire throttle is to blame. Your accelerator pedal isn't connected to the throttle like in older cars. Instead, it's only connected to the computer. The computer thinks it's smarter than you and knows what you want better than you do. It's wrong.

Gotta disagree. I've driven lots of newer vehicles with drive-by-wire and I've never once seen a 2500 rpm engine speed caused by any of them when there is no driver input. That's just not something can be attributed to a drive-by-wire throttle unless it is malfunctioning.

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say it's more likely the cause of a malfunctioning component like the IAC.
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Rope-Pusher » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:19 pm

Lotsa strange stuff going on after a cold start, trying to get the exhaust Cadillac converter up to temperature sooner, even if it means burning more gas to get there. I could see the revs hanging at or shooting up to 2500 erpums after backing out of the driveway and suddenly pushing in the clutch. Fuggetaboutit!
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by theholycow » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:27 pm

Do DBW cars have IACs? Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to just actuate the throttle slightly instead?

You have never driven a 2008 VW Rabbit. With the driver's foot off the pedal and the transmission in neutral it can rev 6000RPM for 30 seconds or more. If it can do that, 2500RPM when you take away the resistance (by taking it out of gear) is very easy to believe.
Shutout89 wrote:So is the resistance I'm feeling possibly the synchros stopping the clutch then, once its stopped when I take the car out of and back into gear it is easier?
Yes.
I dont get how the synchro effects the clutch I cant visualize it
I could, except I can't visualize how the synchronizer pushes back against my hand. I've read descriptions, looked at photos, watched videos, opened up my transmission, etc...there's just something I'm missing.

I can't tell you entirely how. I can at least tell you what (but I think you already know this). The synchronizer spins (or slows) the input shaft so that its speed will match the gear.

Apart from the pushing back, its action is like any simple friction clutch - like the clutch that you operate with the left pedal, like the clutches in an automatic, like the clutch in my lawnmower's drive, etc. Two parts of the synchronizer rub together until their speed matches. One part is attached to the gear you're choosing, the other part is attached to the input shaft (which is attached to the clutch).
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Rope-Pusher » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:16 pm

F N I tolled jew F-Ree thing about how the synchro works, Eyed half ta killya. This much should just make you injured severely:

When you push the lever through Neutral and toward the gear you are shifting into, the shift fork starts to move the synchronizer sleeve. The synchronizer sleeve is rotating because it is splined to a synchronizer hub, which is splined to a rotating shaft in the transmission. As the sleeve starts to slide along the axis of the shaft it rotates about, the struts between the sleeve and its hub start to push out on the side toward the gear you are shifting into. (The gear is not splined to the shaft, so it can rotate at a different speed than what the shaft rotates at). The struts push against the blocker ring (Stop ring in the figure below) and this produces friction between the conical face of the blocker ring and the conical face of the gear. As long as the rotational speed of the blocker ring and the gear are not the same, this friction will cause a torque that speeds or slows the rotation of the gear until it is rotating at the same speed as the synchronizer hub and sleeve. At that point, no more torque is being transmitted by the blocker ring to the speed gear and the blocker ring can index itself to allow the synchronizer hub to slide over it and the clutching teeth on the gear (the blocker ring can rotate freely so that they align with the clutching teeth of the gear and the hub slides over both of them AND stays splined to the synchronizer hub, so now the gear and the hub are married alive by the sleeve and you can let off the clutch pedal and power can be transmitted to the wheels. There is a back-taper to the inner-form of the synchronizer sleeve such that ones it is transmitting power from the gear, the sleeve cannot slide off the clutching teeth. It is only when you let off the throttle or push in the clutch to get to the point that no torque is pushing the clutching teeth against the synchronizer hub that you can easily move the shift knob to pull the sleeve off the clutching teeth and put the transmission in Neutral again (or continue on shifting into another gear). Notic in this case, the figure shows 5th gear of a 5-speed, so instead of having the blocker ring of 6th gear to hold the struts from popping out when you slide the sleeve back to Neutral, there is a strut retainer plate that serves the same purpose. The struts are pressed outward radially by the springs. When the strut is butted against the blocker ring, it cannot slide over any further and in order for the sleeve to continue along, the struts get pressed radially toward the center of the shaft. As the sleeve goes over the protrusion on the outboard face of the strut, it's acting as a detent, where the force builds at first and then tapers off. This is typically combined with another detent in the transmission rails or another part of the internal shift linkage to give you a force to hold the sleeve either in Neutral or engaged with the clutching teeth of a gear, but without the back taper in the sleeve and the torque-lock it produces, the trans would pop out of gear very often under load. The detents are there to give the driver some feedback as to the motion of the sleeve and to lightly hold the sleeve in place while no torque is being transmitted.
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Shadow » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:55 am

Rope-Pusher wrote:Lotsa strange stuff going on after a cold start, trying to get the exhaust Cadillac converter up to temperature sooner, even if it means burning more gas to get there. I could see the revs hanging at or shooting up to 2500 erpums after backing out of the driveway and suddenly pushing in the clutch. Fuggetaboutit!
You can see? Or you have seen?

Like I said, I've never seen that happen on any car unless something is malfunctioning. Also notice that the OP says this is happening after he reverses out of his driveway and then shifts out of reverse. If you want to attribute the high rpm to a cold start, it seems beyond strange that it wouldn't happen until after he reverses out of his driveway. Why wouldn't it happen at idle immediately after start-up? Or when he steps on the clutch to put the car into reverse? Doesn't make sense....
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Shutout89 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:58 am

*edit*

Thanks guys! You have resolved most of my questions you ROCK!

btw this morning as I came out of my driveway i noticed that the revs start to rise as u push the clutch in all the way while still in reverse as well. Again this phenomenon doesn’t happen everytime I start the car and reverse either sometimes the RPMs stay at a normal idle.
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Re: New Car and New to Manuals

Post by Shadow » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:08 am

theholycow wrote:Do DBW cars have IACs? Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper to just actuate the throttle slightly instead?
Some do, some don't. Like I said, it was just a wild guess. The point is that a 2,500 rpm idle speed is not something you normally see from a drive-by-wire throttle system. Of course it's not something that you see from an IAC that's working properly either. Last time I had a vehicle that had a high idle problem, the problem was actually a faulty throttle position sensor. In that case, the idle was continually surging between 1,000 and 3,000 rpm

You have never driven a 2008 VW Rabbit. With the driver's foot off the pedal and the transmission in neutral it can rev 6000RPM for 30 seconds or more.
If the engine in your Rabbit revved to "6000 RPM for 30 seconds or more" then there was something very wrong. That isn't normally operation/behavior under any circumstances. You really should have had the VW dealership fix that problem. And please don't tell me that you brought it back to the dealer and they said it was normal. :lol:

I'd love to see a video of an '08 Rabbit with its engine revving to 6,000 rpm all by itself. Surely there would be lots of videos all over the Internet if other Rabbit owners experienced that.
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