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ColJessip
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Re: Hi there!

Post by ColJessip »

Welcome to SS, I am the resident Porkchop.
Bemvindo a SS, eu sou o residente Porkchop.
94Corolla5Speed
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Re: Hi there!

Post by 94Corolla5Speed »

Welcome to SS!
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theholycow
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Re: Hi there!

Post by theholycow »

fa22raptorf22 wrote:Im infatuated with 6spds and morally against automatics :mrgreen:
I'm morally against using quantity of gears to identify a transmission. Automatics in cars are now available with more and less speeds than manuals; there's 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 speed automatics, but AFAIK only 5 and 6 speed manuals on the market.

You can't get a new Camaro without a 6 speed.
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

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watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
Rope-Pusher
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Re: Hi there!

Post by Rope-Pusher »

theholycow wrote:
fa22raptorf22 wrote:Im infatuated with 6spds and morally against automatics :mrgreen:
I'm morally against using quantity of gears to identify a transmission. Automatics in cars are now available with more and less speeds than manuals; there's 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 speed automatics, but AFAIK only 5 and 6 speed manuals on the market.

You can't get a new Camaro without a 6 speed.
WRT shift patterns, you can't beat the Double-Aich 5-speed, with 5th-to-reverse blockout at the trans. Moving to a 6-speed pattern starts down the slippery slope of knocking the passenger's knee when shifting into Reverse, having to use a lift ring or crash-through load to block mis-shifts into Reverse, etc. Not that I don't appreciate the increased ratio span of the transmission / closer spacing of the gear ratios, but it doesn't come without baggage.
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"
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theholycow
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Re: Hi there!

Post by theholycow »

Rope-Pusher wrote:Not that I don't appreciate the increased ratio span of the transmission
Who puts in an increased ratio span? I'm the only person in the world who wants it, but I'm not an automotive engineer so I don't get to make that choice...everyone else wants closer ratios and that seems to be what gets put in vehicles.
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

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watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
Rope-Pusher
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Re: Hi there!

Post by Rope-Pusher »

theholycow wrote:
Rope-Pusher wrote:Not that I don't appreciate the increased ratio span of the transmission
Who puts in an increased ratio span? I'm the only person in the world who wants it, but I'm not an automotive engineer so I don't get to make that choice...everyone else wants closer ratios and that seems to be what gets put in vehicles.
Ratio selection is like artwork and science mixed together. Overall top gear ratio is usually fenced-in by some gradeability goal - what slope the vehicle can drive up at GVW without downshifting. Overall first gear ratio is usually set by some launchability goal (more of a feel, not a hard number). How you space the gears in between can be based on performance, fuel economy, etc. Do you want to get to 50 in 2nd gear? ...60? Do you want a big ratio jump to top gear, or a small jump. Is there a particular passing acceleration test that would be helped by revising 3rd gear ratio? Of course, the characteristics of the vehicle and engine must be taken into account, such as the narrow RPM range of a diesel, the high RPM range of a VTEC or the broad torque curve of a vehicle with a turbo. What you end up with is what a particular chief engineer was happy with....or whatever the transmission manufacturer had already tooled-up - it's just an Amish transmission, so who cares?
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"
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theholycow
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Re: Hi there!

Post by theholycow »

Rope-Pusher wrote:or whatever the transmission manufacturer had already tooled-up - it's just an Amish transmission, so who cares?
Indeed, I'm pretty sure that's how my car got its transmission.
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watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
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wannabe
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Re: Hi there!

Post by wannabe »

WELCOME. i'm one of the resident females....
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Leedeth
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Re: Hi there!

Post by Leedeth »

Oh hey, welcome to SS.
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RITmusic2k
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Re: Hi there!

Post by RITmusic2k »

Welcome to SS! I'm campaigning to become the resident Picture-Request Whore, but Rope-Pusher beat me to it this time around.

Still,

Let's see some pictures of your car!!
Rope-Pusher
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Re: Hi there!

Post by Rope-Pusher »

RITmusic2k wrote:Welcome to SS! I'm campaigning to become the resident Picture-Request Whore, but Rope-Pusher beat me to it this time around.

Still,

Let's see some pictures of your car!!
Oh, was I standing on YOUR street corner?
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"
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RITmusic2k
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Re: Hi there!

Post by RITmusic2k »

A little friendly competition is good for the soul...
LHOswald
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Re: Hi there!

Post by LHOswald »

theholycow wrote:Who puts in an increased ratio span? I'm the only person in the world who wants it, but I'm not an automotive engineer so I don't get to make that choice...everyone else wants closer ratios and that seems to be what gets put in vehicles.
people want closer ratios so that they can stay in their powerband easier. widening them is pointless unless you have a very wide powerband. but most engines have a very narrow powerband and therefore the right thing to do would be to have closer gear ratios so that you can have better acceleration.
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theholycow
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Re: Hi there!

Post by theholycow »

LHOswald wrote:people want closer ratios so that they can stay in their powerband easier. widening them is pointless unless you have a very wide powerband. but most engines have a very narrow powerband and therefore the right thing to do would be to have closer gear ratios so that you can have better acceleration.
That's the usual reason that people claim, but most engines I've used have a decently wide powerband, and it's not necessary to be in that powerband most of the time anyway - doubly so for most drivers, who are not racing. People cruise along the highway for hours at a time, after spending 8 seconds accelerating.

Then there's time spent shifting. Every shift takes a second (or some amount of time which differs from one car/driver/speed to another) unless you're looking to destroy your transmission. I suspect that my car, which redlines at 55mph in 2nd, could cut a second off its important 0-60 time by widening the ratio just a little so 2nd goes to 60. At some point, the slight improvements to staying in a narrower powerband have to be overcome by the time spent shifting.

My car has great ratios for speeds up to 35mph, but to continue with similar gear spacing it could really use another 4 gears for suburban speeds and US-legal highway cruising (more on the autobahn). It's geared for drag racing and congested city driving. I wish I had a gear that I couldn't use while rolling along in town. I never have to cruise in 4th except in 20mph school zones. I wish I had a reason to downshift once in a while! I can skip all my in-between gears, just use 1st and 5th, if I wanted some 1st gear engine noise. I can shift 1-2-5 or 1-3-5 without even making a ruckus, shifting at 3500rpm.

Excessively close ratios: Appropriate for a drag race car, not helpful for most other purposes.
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watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
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Re: Hi there!

Post by Rope-Pusher »

^+1 VW used to quote some mighty nice 0-50 times, but after 1 more shift, their 0-10 times were ..."Not-so-Much". Also tended to run a lot of final drive ratio, so they were revving kinds high out on the highway. In the grand scheme of things, performance is a state of mind, not a bunch of numbers. We rarely compete in accurately timed events, or in impromptu street races that are decided by what speed 2nd gear runs out at. Probably more important to get the launch and overall top gear ratios that you want and not as important to have closely spaced gears.
Ratio closeness conflicts with overall transmission ratio spread. If you choose to have all the gear ratios closely spread, you will have to compromise either launch ratio or top gear ratio. It's surprising, but adding one more ratio to the transmission doesn't solve the world's problems. If you want to have the perfect gear ratio for every situation, think of bicycles. If you stay with one stick, the shift pattern will run from door panel to door panel. Maybe what you need is a splitter, like the front chainwheel on a bike, with 2 gear ranges and 4 gear ranges in the transmission. Oh wait, that's been done already. Mitsubishi Twin-Stick, circa 1982(?).
The powertrain is a system. It is optimized based on dollars and sense. For most drivers, the engine flexibility needs favor a broad torque band vs peak horsepressure, so the performance in daily driving doesn't require as many gear ratios as one (or two) might think.
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"
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