road racing school in a formula car!

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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by gizmo » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:08 am

I guess blips must only be made when the difference in gear speed is nominal, as the engagement of dog teeth is the only time a dog box can experience damage and a SCHT will not allow driver to adjust layshaft speed.

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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by mtheis » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:35 am

The gearbox might have dog ring engagement.
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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by gizmo » Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:40 pm

I'm gonna have to try these skip barber cars, just because for 60 minutes of track time, they're a hell of a lot cheaper than many other schools. I've never been a big fan of these particular types of cars, more of a stock car guy myself, but they can't be too dissimilar -- can they?

Only thing I dislike about their program is this (you can ffw to the last minute if you wanna skip to the point):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i2KovaxCbk

Apparently this guy got stuck flipping the bill for the damage when I don't think he was at fault. Here's the view that leads me to believe that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCKo9PBw ... re=related

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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by ra64t » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:42 pm

I'll let you guys know what the sequential shifting is like when I get back from skippy.

Skip Barber has some of the highest damage liability compared to other schools, but for the half day program, max liability is only 1000 bucks. Also, I'm pretty sure there's no passing in the half day program, so you don't need to worry about someone wreaking you.

500 bucks for a half day with 50 minutes of track time is a good deal. My 3 day program had less then 3 hours or track time in the formula cars. Other schools are comparable.

Gizmo, if you have any questions let me know, I've done quite a bit of research on the formula car schools.
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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by gizmo » Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:47 pm

I'm a big fan of short-track racing. I love speedways but making good lap times on a short track is in a world of its own -- far more difficult IMHumbleO -- even more difficult than road racing (See Ross Bentley's book on Speed Secrets) -- but I just don't know if I'm making the right speed through turns because every stock car school that runs on a short track either costs as much as a stock car itself for 8 minutes or there is no instructor to follow whose pushing the envelope, nor any instruction of substance, nor a car that's worth a damn compared to a real race car running that track, so there's no hope of making real improvement.

I'm going to attend one last short track school in May and my hopes are high but who knows how it will turn out (whether I'll run faster as a result of it).

I wish I wasn't broke so I could have my own racecar (I'm only doing these schools because my dad died and in some wierd way, since we loved racing, I thought it would help me cope).

But yeah, I wanna run the Skip Barber school, just wondering if I'll corner better as a result of it (through sharper corners) and if that better cornering will transfer over into stock car racing.

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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by ra64t » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:34 am

My favorite form for racing is wheel to wheel road racing, but I love all disiplines of the sport. I agree getting around a short track takes some real skill, anyone who doesn't think so is stupid.

I haven't read Ross Bentleys book yet. I have read Going Faster (which is the Skip Barber school book) and I'm reading Drive to Win by Carrol Smith now.

In terms of the stock car schools, I've looked into them a bit but don't know that much. A lot are more for fun and not serious enough for me. The ones that are serious are extremely expensive, even more so then the road racing schools. So much for stock cars being for the everyday guy - racing is the most expensive sport, whatever the form! Fastline seemed like a good one from what I could tell. I'm considering doing a school like that eventually as ultimately my drive would be paid to race for free - in whatever I can.

I think road racing would help you on a short track, at least somewhat. Look at all the guys coming up in NASCAR from a road racing background. Also you might want to consider running the MX-5 cup cars with Skip Barber instead of the formula cars - my similar vehicle dynamics for a stock car.

Sorry to hear about your dad. My pops died when I was young. That's cool that you guys were able to share a passion together, I never really got a chance to.
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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by gizmo » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:04 pm

I enjoy road racing too. The mere fact that it requires constant downshifting puts it on an entirely different level than most oval track racing. The only question I would ask you, is have you ever driven on a short track with normal amounts of banking, because with a car that's setup to go left by nature, and the banking, the thrill through corners in unbelievable. For that reason, the car is designed to do superior things through those corners at superior speeds -- if done right by the driver -- so I find that cornering on a short track is a bit more difficult than cornering on a road course. I referenced that book before because I believe it made the same claim. I've always been meaning to buy that Carrol Smith's book but school has had me far too busy for that (I did read Steve Smith's book on Stock Car Chassis Technology, and Butch Millers book on Short Track Technique) both of which have helped me improve markedly.

In the end, I want to do the barber school for the sheer fact that I won't find a "serious" racing school (I've heard good things about finish line btw, but far too expensive for my blood) that'll beat a few of the packages at barber. I enjoy racing, regardless of form, immensely. When I was driving high speed karts on a 9/10th mile road course I was having a blast (never wanted to get off). But I find those circle track corners are terribly difficult to navigate as well as a pro and I never get the feeling that I'm doing them quite right but I need more experience (a car, more money, something that'll get me otu there) to perfect it.

Something for your viewing pleasure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MopRYmSp ... re=related

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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by ra64t » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:47 pm

I've never raced on a short track before (I have driven my street car around one once, lol) but i know enough to understand the challenges of it. I used to play the papyrus nascar racing game a lot, and later season 2003 a bit.

Skip Barber is the 800lb gorilla of road racing schools so I'm pretty sure you can't go wrong with it. I would recommend bertil roos too though from my experience. They have programs comperable to to Skip but a little cheaper. I'm not sure where you live but roos does locations on the east coast. There were guys in my class that came from as far as Michigan and Louisiana to do the school. I'll be comparing the schools in my blog once I finish skippy.

I'm considering getting a go-kart to race, something like the TAG class. Thinking about renting one for a half day practice later this year. Right now owning my own car is not really possible for me, so it's just arrive and drive deals and maybe run my own kart by next year.

The guy in the vid is just driving way over his head imo.
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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by gizmo » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:34 pm

That's what I didn't understand about the video; I can't tell what the hell he's doing that's causing him to spin out. I guess it's just easier to tell what a drivers doing from a different POV within a streetcar based vehicle.

I looked into the roos school, and they're 90 minutes away from me, but they don't offer 60 minutes for Skippys price of 495 (i forget the name of that program) but yes, for all other programs, roos is better priced.

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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by ra64t » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:56 pm

I checked and roos only offers 40 minutes of track time compared to 60 for skippy. If you call them I think they would give you a price break though. I would try to get 20% off the listed price.

It is hard to tell exactly what he did wrong in the video, but it could be many things for each spin - not enough blip on the downshift + not finishing the downshifts before turn in, jumping off the throttle too abruptly, "trail braking" too much etc.

That daytona infield course looks interesting, but if it were me, I'd go for a track like Lime Rock, VIR, Road America, etc, over the roval/infield courses.
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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by gizmo » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:56 pm

If I can fork up the cash to go, whenever that might be, I would go to limerock with skippy. I've made my mind up on that one already (just like I'll buy a ferarri when I buy out bill gates).

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Re: road racing school in a formula car!

Post by ra64t » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:23 pm

details of the skip barber advanced two day school are on my blog: http://www.aracingdream.com

I don't think I mentioned many details about the sequential shifter, but I really liked it. Upshifts are just like an H-pattern doxbox, except you are always pushing the stick back, so little chance to a misshift. you can still "misshift" though, if you don't pull or push the shifter hard enough. It is kinda tricky to remember what gear your in at first. You have to count to keep track, but once you get used to it, it's easy.

You couldn't easily left foot brake in these cars as something (i think the steering shaft) runs between the clutch and brake. Since I couldn't left foot brake, I decided to stick with using the clutch on downshifts. What I was doing was essentially a single clutch heel toe, all one motion. It felt very natural as its what I learned first in my street car. The ratios are closer then a 4 speed to not that much blip is needed. It's pretty fun to row down 3 gears quickly and sounds really cool!

i meant to try a few clutchless downshifts on a cool down lap or something but forgot as I was focused on other things. I'm more used to the clutch motion on this car though so since there's no left foot braking, I'll continue to use the clutch next time I drive them.
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