How much do you drive manual for the performance reasons vs. the experience?

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How much do you drive manual for the performance reasons vs. the feeling?

100% performance, 0% engagement
0
No votes
80/20
0
No votes
60/40
0
No votes
40/60
3
33%
20/80
2
22%
0% performance, 100% engagement
4
44%
 
Total votes: 9

IMBoring25
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Re: How much do you drive manual for the performance reasons vs. the experience?

Post by IMBoring25 » Fri May 10, 2019 1:57 pm

Funny you mention the GM 8-speed as good. There's actually a class action on it now.

There are a couple of human-factors reasons most manuals don't do as well on the highway. One is that adding gears to a CVT or automatic is pretty straightforward (though technically difficult with the packaging, weight, and cost constraints). Adding gears to a manual, though, above each even-numbered count, requires adding a gate (or a range selector). Six is a very significant number because it gives you a push-left gate, center gate, and push-right gate with a separate locked-out reverse, where seven introduces a need for a second lockout or a very confidence-inspiring gate (or a range selector). Seven-speeds are, however, becoming more common.

The other reason is that you can gear an automatic up as much as you want as long as it's responsive enough to downshift that you get the power when you want it. When you give manual drivers a gear that won't pull a moderate hill on the highway, though, some percentage of them will complain that you've given them a useless gear.

It has nothing to do with top speed. Modern cars typically have at least one gear (and often more than that) present for entirely highway mileage and NVH reasons. They are aerodynamically limited before being gearing limited and top-speed runs are usually done at least one gear down from top gear.

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Re: How much do you drive manual for the performance reasons vs. the experience?

Post by blauenlanze » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:04 pm

Looks like there are some reliability casualties and the new 8 speed era is not all fun and games... The GM 8 speed drove quite well, although not ZF 8 speed level, when I tried it out.

You are right for my particular car, though I mention top speed because the bigger brothers of this car, the BMW M2/M4, both reach top speed in 6th gear, and a decent list of sporty cars do as well (Civic Type R, 03/04 Cobra, Honda S2000, Subaru WRX STi, VW Golf R, etc.) I guess on most of these
cars, the sixth gear is still "used" at the very high end of the track, so I'm more complaining that they didn't optimize for an extra 2-3MPG in my particular case when they could have given all the torque. The "super tall 6th gear" phenomenon as you mention though, is now practical and is done on some of the muscle performance cars like the Mustang, etc.

With the removal of the manual option on the new Corvette, we now only have a single (?) 7 speed manual on the 911. GM doesn't seem super eager to put it in the Camaro, and the only other place I see it rumored is the Bronco. I think the downside of a large 5th/6th gap is not that annoying vs. a less precise shifter, but I have yet to try either the 7 speed Corvette or 911 to see for myself
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Re: How much do you drive manual for the performance reasons vs. the experience?

Post by Shadow » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:20 am

blauenlanze wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:04 pm
Looks like there are some reliability casualties and the new 8 speed era is not all fun and games... The GM 8 speed drove quite well, although not ZF 8 speed level, when I tried it out.

You are right for my particular car, though I mention top speed because the bigger brothers of this car, the BMW M2/M4, both reach top speed in 6th gear, and a decent list of sporty cars do as well (Civic Type R, 03/04 Cobra, Honda S2000, Subaru WRX STi, VW Golf R, etc.) I guess on most of these
cars, the sixth gear is still "used" at the very high end of the track, so I'm more complaining that they didn't optimize for an extra 2-3MPG in my particular case when they could have given all the torque. The "super tall 6th gear" phenomenon as you mention though, is now practical and is done on some of the muscle performance cars like the Mustang, etc.

With the removal of the manual option on the new Corvette, we now only have a single (?) 7 speed manual on the 911. GM doesn't seem super eager to put it in the Camaro, and the only other place I see it rumored is the Bronco. I think the downside of a large 5th/6th gap is not that annoying vs. a less precise shifter, but I have yet to try either the 7 speed Corvette or 911 to see for myself
I've mentioned this in the past, but I much prefer my 6th gear to not be severely overdriven for fuel economy. To me, it's no fun to be cruising at highway speeds at a super low RPM just to get another MPG when the trade off is that the car has zero acceleration in it's top gear. I'd much rather have the ability to accelerate cleanly without have to downshift. And that's exactly how my car is set up. If I'm at highway speeds in 6th gear, I can quite easily pass without having to downshift.

Car And Driver magazine publishes "top gear acceleration" numbers on their road tests. This information is very telling with manual transmission vehicles because it's the easiest way to tell if a car is geared strictly for economy or not. Hypermilers probably wouldn't like it, but I sure do. Probably the worst car I've ever owned in terms of top gear acceleration were my old Foxbody Mustangs. 5th gear was so severely overdrive that the car couldn't accelerate without downshifting first at highway speeds. Flooring the gas pedal did just about nothing unless you were over 80 MPH, and even then it was weaksauce. That's just not fun to me...
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Re: How much do you drive manual for the performance reasons vs. the experience?

Post by tankinbeans » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:43 am

I've always dropped a gear or two to pass on the highway, even in the ST with its synthesized loud pedal.
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Re: How much do you drive manual for the performance reasons vs. the experience?

Post by potownrob » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:11 am

what'd eye miss?! how's it going everybody?? oh, that's right, thanks for filling me in, tank. downshift, what's that?! just mash the gas and go!! :lol:

jk, eye do downshift in the big beast, mainly out of necessity, but usually not unless i drop down in speed a lot, and on a hill. the beast is beastly, which is why i got him - less shifting and more drinking (off the record: and more occasional eating). i've even downshifted little beast a few times, mainly while going down a hill. little beast is usually smart and knows to downshift when i use the brakes going down a hill, but knot always...big beast may soon be made obsolete (for my purpoises, if that's possible), if little beast is soon replaced. time will tell.
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Re: How much do you drive manual for the performance reasons vs. the experience?

Post by watkins » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:26 pm

I really dont need to downshift to pass very often. Turbos are fun

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Re: How much do you drive manual for the performance reasons vs. the experience?

Post by ClutchFork » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:11 am

Shadow wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:20 am
Probably the worst car I've ever owned in terms of top gear acceleration were my old Foxbody Mustangs. 5th gear was so severely overdrive that the car couldn't accelerate without downshifting first at highway speeds. Flooring the gas pedal did just about nothing unless you were over 80 MPH, and even then it was weaksauce. That's just not fun to me...
With the 3.08 rear on the 1992 Fox 5.0 it would be just fine without 5th gear. We only drop it into 5th on the highway, but even then it does not turn that much RPM in 4th and we don't take the Fox on the highway if we can avoid it because it is a lot more fun with stoplights anyway.
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Re: How much do you drive manual for the performance reasons vs. the experience?

Post by Shadow » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:36 am

ClutchFork wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:11 am
Shadow wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:20 am
Probably the worst car I've ever owned in terms of top gear acceleration were my old Foxbody Mustangs. 5th gear was so severely overdrive that the car couldn't accelerate without downshifting first at highway speeds. Flooring the gas pedal did just about nothing unless you were over 80 MPH, and even then it was weaksauce. That's just not fun to me...
With the 3.08 rear on the 1992 Fox 5.0 it would be just fine without 5th gear. We only drop it into 5th on the highway, but even then it does not turn that much RPM in 4th and we don't take the Fox on the highway if we can avoid it because it is a lot more fun with stoplights anyway.
My first Mustang had the 2:73 rear end (otherwise known as the "highway" gears) and 5th gear was only good for cruising at 60 MPH on a flat highway. Forget trying to pass without downshifting.....and forget trying to maintain your speed on an incline without also downshifting. I actually preferred to drive that car in 4th gear on the highway most of the time, but that's obviously not the best for fuel economy or for noise.

My second Mustang came with the 3:08 rear end and that one seemed a tiny bit better, but not by much. I still couldn't pass anyone without downshifting.

I've owned several cars that had great passing power in top gear. My old E36 M3 had tons of power and didn't require a downshift to pass. My current Audi as well, no need to ever downshift to pass. If I'm downshifting in my Audi at highway speeds, it's because I want a crazy burst of acceleration. Like Watkins, I really love turbo cars.
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