Good Automatics

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bk7794
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Re: Good Automatics

Post by bk7794 »

Its a shame they switched to a cable shifter in the JLs. Wasn't it rod actuated or direct actuated before?
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Re: Good Automatics

Post by Rope-Pusher »

bk7794 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:38 pm Its a shame they switched to a cable shifter in the JLs. Wasn't it rod actuated or direct actuated before?
Yeah, there was a rod coming up out of the trans ......but it wasn't straight up. It came out forward of where you would want it and then the stick bent back rearward. What this means is that when you were shifting fore and aft, you were also shifting up and down, not the way DOG meant it to be. If there wasn't a transfer case back behind the trans they could have offset the shifting to a housing further rearward and the stick could have been more vertical when in Neutral between 3rd and 4th.

There were other issues with the NSG370. The shift knob travels are long, it has a back-handed motion to overcome the Reverse gear crash-through detent, and the shift lever side-to-side motion is violent as you drive over rough terrain. There is a lot of freeplay at the shift knob. Also, like most every other modern-era Amish gearbox, it is possible to explode the clutch friction disk by downshifting at too high of a speed.

The JL was intended not to "Shift like a truck" like the JK does. This is because the competitive vehicle for the JL Wrangler was.......
...the Ford Mustang! They are both vehicles you really don't need to own, but they are also both toys that you might decide to reward yourself with if you can afford more than mere transportation. Anyway, that was the thought process behind why the JL Wrangler shifts as it does. The video below compares and contrasts the JK and JL Amish gearboxes.

[youtubehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eugurf9b38s][/youtube]
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Re: Good Automatics

Post by potownrob »

Rope-Pusher wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:30 pm
watkins wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:30 am the garbage manual used in the JL. I absolutely hate having to deal with manual JLs at work.
What are the problems with the Amish JLs? Seriously. I'm not defending them....I don't know much about them. I really can't say if I've ever driven one. ....so, what's wrong? I've heard that the clutch release is lacking in reserve travel, as if it wasn't getting bled properly or something. Also, there were issues with the clutch pedal / release system which made it difficult to modulate the clutch engagement. There is also a couple problems with the shifter - the Select lever deflects too much, losing travel and allowing the cable bushing to walk off the end of the pin. Also, kinda hot off the presses, but the shifter doesn't actuate the cable far enough to travel from the center of the 3/4 gate to the center of the 1/2 gate - you end up with a very narrow 1/2 gate and for a lot of people this means blocked shifts into 1st and 2nd. Oh, and on first year's production, the Select cable gage length requirement was mis-calculated and you could have a vehicle where the cable adjuster range of authority was biased in one direction and you might not be able to get enough adjustment in the other direction out of it.

So, please share what symptoms the customers are experiencing and what you may know about issues with the hardware.
weight, ewe claim j00 know not munch aboot what's wrong whiff the JL Manuels, then you list a bunch of issues whiff them?? :shock: :? :mrgreen:
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
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Re: Good Automatics

Post by potownrob »

Rope-Pusher wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:37 pm
bk7794 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:38 pm Its a shame they switched to a cable shifter in the JLs. Wasn't it rod actuated or direct actuated before?
Yeah, there was a rod coming up out of the trans ......but it wasn't straight up. It came out forward of where you would want it and then the stick bent back rearward. What this means is that when you were shifting fore and aft, you were also shifting up and down, not the way DOG meant it to be. If there wasn't a transfer case back behind the trans they could have offset the shifting to a housing further rearward and the stick could have been more vertical when in Neutral between 3rd and 4th.

There were other issues with the NSG370. The shift knob travels are long, it has a back-handed motion to overcome the Reverse gear crash-through detent, and the shift lever side-to-side motion is violent as you drive over rough terrain. There is a lot of freeplay at the shift knob. Also, like most every other modern-era Amish gearbox, it is possible to explode the clutch friction disk by downshifting at too high of a speed.

The JL was intended not to "Shift like a truck" like the JK does. This is because the competitive vehicle for the JL Wrangler was.......
...the Ford Mustang!
They are both vehicles you really don't need to own, but they are also both toys that you might decide to reward yourself with if you can afford more than mere transportation. Anyway, that was the thought process behind why the JL Wrangler shifts as it does. The video below compares and contrasts the JK and JL Amish gearboxes.

[youtubehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eugurf9b38s][/youtube]
weight, wut?! :shock: :!:
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
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Re: Good Automatics

Post by Rope-Pusher »

potownrob wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:54 am
Rope-Pusher wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:37 pm
bk7794 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:38 pm Its a shame they switched to a cable shifter in the JLs. Wasn't it rod actuated or direct actuated before?
Yeah, there was a rod coming up out of the trans ......but it wasn't straight up. It came out forward of where you would want it and then the stick bent back rearward. What this means is that when you were shifting fore and aft, you were also shifting up and down, not the way DOG meant it to be. If there wasn't a transfer case back behind the trans they could have offset the shifting to a housing further rearward and the stick could have been more vertical when in Neutral between 3rd and 4th.

There were other issues with the NSG370. The shift knob travels are long, it has a back-handed motion to overcome the Reverse gear crash-through detent, and the shift lever side-to-side motion is violent as you drive over rough terrain. There is a lot of freeplay at the shift knob. Also, like most every other modern-era Amish gearbox, it is possible to explode the clutch friction disk by downshifting at too high of a speed.

The JL was intended not to "Shift like a truck" like the JK does. This is because the competitive vehicle for the JL Wrangler was.......
...the Ford Mustang!
They are both vehicles you really don't need to own, but they are also both toys that you might decide to reward yourself with if you can afford more than mere transportation. Anyway, that was the thought process behind why the JL Wrangler shifts as it does. The video below compares and contrasts the JK and JL Amish gearboxes.

[youtubehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eugurf9b38s][/youtube]
weight, wut?! :shock: :!:
The dyed-in-the-wool Jeepers say "You don't like the JK Shifting? It's a Jeep. They've been that way since "The Big One". Get over it."
But the larger potential market for Jeep buyers were people for whom this might be their first Jeep vehicle. They didn't want to have to "Get over it". If a Musclestang shifted lousily, they wouldn't purchase it either.
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Re: Good Automatics

Post by potownrob »

Yeah, eye got it, jest messin witch ah Mann. Didn’t Rustangs shift rough lee two?? Maybe that was mainly back when other cars shifted rough lee two, and there whirr more Manuels out there and the autos were bad.
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
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Re: Good Automatics

Post by Rope-Pusher »

potownrob wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:52 am
Rope-Pusher wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:30 pm
watkins wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:30 am the garbage manual used in the JL. I absolutely hate having to deal with manual JLs at work.
What are the problems with the Amish JLs? Seriously. I'm not defending them....I don't know much about them. I really can't say if I've ever driven one. ....so, what's wrong? I've heard that the clutch release is lacking in reserve travel, as if it wasn't getting bled properly or something. Also, there were issues with the clutch pedal / release system which made it difficult to modulate the clutch engagement. There is also a couple problems with the shifter - the Select lever deflects too much, losing travel and allowing the cable bushing to walk off the end of the pin. Also, kinda hot off the presses, but the shifter doesn't actuate the cable far enough to travel from the center of the 3/4 gate to the center of the 1/2 gate - you end up with a very narrow 1/2 gate and for a lot of people this means blocked shifts into 1st and 2nd. Oh, and on first year's production, the Select cable gage length requirement was mis-calculated and you could have a vehicle where the cable adjuster range of authority was biased in one direction and you might not be able to get enough adjustment in the other direction out of it.

So, please share what symptoms the customers are experiencing and what you may know about issues with the hardware.
weight, ewe claim j00 know not munch aboot what's wrong whiff the JL Manuels, then you list a bunch of issues whiff them?? :shock: :? :mrgreen:
Yanno, I'm not saying I am an Amish Bishop or anything like that, but I don't have problems shifting most Amish vehicles. I know what's going on mechanically for the shift system, the clutch release system, the transmixer and the clutch and I subconsciously operate the vehicle in a way that avoids provoking any issues that may exist. As an example, I bury the clutch pedal to the floor / downstop for every shift. A "Good" vehicle has maybe 35 mm of "Reserve" - downward pedal travel after the clutch has stopped transmitting torque. Some vehicle don't have 35 mm, but you still need to get the clutch to release, so you can help the situation by pushing the pedal as far as it can go. If the clutch is not fully released, it drags on the flywheel and pressure plate and then the shifting efforts go up and the shifting feels "noisy". So, driving the same vehicle, I may experience no significant issues and someone else complains about the shifting, when their real issue is the lack of clutch release reserve.

To me, reading warranty narratives doesn't really tell me if the vehicle has a clutch problem, a shift linkage problem, a transmission problem, or a clutch release problem. It's a lot better if you can talk to the owner and even better yet if you can watch them drive and show the problem to you.
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Re: Good Automatics

Post by Johnf514 »

bk7794 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:24 pmI'm very curious now. I'm sure it won't be the same in a Grand Cherokee as it is in the Alfa. How is the Stinger automatic? I was looking at maybe a G70 at some point down the road.
Stinger automatic is solid. It is their in house 8 speed and shares similar characteristics with the ZF. Also used in the Sorento, so it can do a bit of hauling and is more durable than what goes in their other sedans. Shifts are smooth when warmed up, reasonably quick in sport mode, but don't slam you around like a Mercedes might. Nothing replaces a good 6speed but this is fine for a daily. If only the CTS5V was less expensive... :lol:
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Re: Good Automatics

Post by watkins »

Rope-Pusher wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:30 pm
watkins wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:30 am the garbage manual used in the JL. I absolutely hate having to deal with manual JLs at work.
What are the problems with the Amish JLs? Seriously. I'm not defending them....I don't know much about them. I really can't say if I've ever driven one. ....so, what's wrong? I've heard that the clutch release is lacking in reserve travel, as if it wasn't getting bled properly or something. Also, there were issues with the clutch pedal / release system which made it difficult to modulate the clutch engagement. There is also a couple problems with the shifter - the Select lever deflects too much, losing travel and allowing the cable bushing to walk off the end of the pin. Also, kinda hot off the presses, but the shifter doesn't actuate the cable far enough to travel from the center of the 3/4 gate to the center of the 1/2 gate - you end up with a very narrow 1/2 gate and for a lot of people this means blocked shifts into 1st and 2nd. Oh, and on first year's production, the Select cable gage length requirement was mis-calculated and you could have a vehicle where the cable adjuster range of authority was biased in one direction and you might not be able to get enough adjustment in the other direction out of it.

So, please share what symptoms the customers are experiencing and what you may know about issues with the hardware.
The driving experience is terrible. The clutch is vague as hell and there is absolutely no change of feel to know when it begins to engage. I'm not convinced they ever fully engage at all. As such, stalling is far too easy. As someone who flat out doesn't stall unless something goes really sideways, I find it concerning. The shifter situation is obviously a mess. As a whole the JL manual is just so messy to drive that the fun of rowing your own gears is far from enough to compensate.
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Re: Good Automatics

Post by Rope-Pusher »

watkins wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:16 pm
Rope-Pusher wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:30 pm
watkins wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:30 am the garbage manual used in the JL. I absolutely hate having to deal with manual JLs at work.
What are the problems with the Amish JLs? Seriously. I'm not defending them....I don't know much about them. I really can't say if I've ever driven one. ....so, what's wrong? I've heard that the clutch release is lacking in reserve travel, as if it wasn't getting bled properly or something. Also, there were issues with the clutch pedal / release system which made it difficult to modulate the clutch engagement. There is also a couple problems with the shifter - the Select lever deflects too much, losing travel and allowing the cable bushing to walk off the end of the pin. Also, kinda hot off the presses, but the shifter doesn't actuate the cable far enough to travel from the center of the 3/4 gate to the center of the 1/2 gate - you end up with a very narrow 1/2 gate and for a lot of people this means blocked shifts into 1st and 2nd. Oh, and on first year's production, the Select cable gage length requirement was mis-calculated and you could have a vehicle where the cable adjuster range of authority was biased in one direction and you might not be able to get enough adjustment in the other direction out of it.

So, please share what symptoms the customers are experiencing and what you may know about issues with the hardware.
The driving experience is terrible. The clutch is vague as hell and there is absolutely no change of feel to know when it begins to engage. I'm not convinced they ever fully engage at all. As such, stalling is far too easy. As someone who flat out doesn't stall unless something goes really sideways, I find it concerning. The shifter situation is obviously a mess. As a whole the JL manual is just so messy to drive that the fun of rowing your own gears is far from enough to compensate.
I could tell you tales about the clutch system ....but then I'd have to shoot you. You're probably familiar with the recall campaign to prevent failures due to overheating the clutch, anyway.
For the shifting, there's always been a big wonder how many vehicles make it past the end-of-line test with unadjusted or grossly misadjusted Select cables. I feel there aren't people confident enough in their Amish abilities to draw attention to something that's not right, because they fear getting criticized themselves for not knowing how to shift.
That being sad (sic), do you find customers bringing their vehicles in to address shifting complaints where their issues can be satisfactorily addressed by adjusting the cable, or is there nothing that really can be done because the parts are to print and the adjustment is OK, but the design inherently cannot satisfy the needs of all the drivers?
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