Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by hockeystyx16 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:30 pm

Prodigal Son wrote:Funny thing. People who study the US health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the Canadian system. People who study the Canadian health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the US system.
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by AHTOXA » Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:51 pm

hockeystyx16 wrote:
Prodigal Son wrote:Funny thing. People who study the US health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the Canadian system. People who study the Canadian health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the US system.
grass is greener on the other side
Screw going all the way to the other side for green grass. I'll see my dealer around the corner. His is green enough.
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by wannabe » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:08 pm

AHTOXA wrote:
hockeystyx16 wrote:
Prodigal Son wrote:Funny thing. People who study the US health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the Canadian system. People who study the Canadian health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the US system.
grass is greener on the other side
Screw going all the way to the other side for green grass. I'll see my dealer around the corner. His is green enough.
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by Bawked » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:05 pm

over $100 bux to fill my car... i lose :( got 24mpg out of my last tank. seems like i'm putting atleast $80 in a week.
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by theholycow » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:45 pm

Prodigal Son wrote:Funny thing. People who study the US health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the Canadian system. People who study the Canadian health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the US system.
I LOL'd. :lol:
AHTOXA wrote:Screw going all the way to the other side for green grass. I'll see my dealer around the corner. His is green enough.
I LOL'd again. :lol:
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by Johnf514 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:45 pm

Prodigal Son wrote:Funny thing. People who study the US health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the Canadian system. People who study the Canadian health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the US system.
:lol:

I've heard that before and while I don't entirely agree, I just try to remind people that Canada has less people (although it's growing quite rapidly, hence the need for a redo on the health care system) and it's a helluva lot easier to provide free health care to 30 million vs. 300 million. :)
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by Prodigal Son » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:17 pm

Johnf514 wrote:
Prodigal Son wrote:Funny thing. People who study the US health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the Canadian system. People who study the Canadian health care system say it is in crisis and needs to be run more like the US system.
:lol:

I've heard that before and while I don't entirely agree, I just try to remind people that Canada has less people (although it's growing quite rapidly, hence the need for a redo on the health care system) and it's a helluva lot easier to provide free health care to 30 million vs. 300 million. :)
Actually, it is not so much a matter of scale. Providing just about anything is harder in Canada because of our low population density and extreme weather. The real problem is that health care systems by their very nature tend towards crisis. Chronic problems are more expensive to deal with than acute ones. In the 50's when health care systems were being introduced, people generally went to hospital to die of something acute. Their care was not that expensive and once they died, they did not create any further demands on the health care system. Now, however, people who go to the hospital with acute conditions get cured (using increasingly expensive therapies) and then leave, either with a chronic condition that requires expensive ongoing care, or to live on long enough to get a chronic condition that requires expensive ongoing care. The more successful health care is, therefore, the more expensive it becomes. The very success of health care creates the conditions of crisis.

The difference between the US health care crisis and the Canadian health care crisis is this:

In the US, health care is a market commodity. Those who can afford it pay for it and so the market produces enough health care professionals to meet the demand at the price people are willing to pay. The resulting crisis is that many people can't afford the market price of health care and so don't get any.

In Canada, the system is government run a guarantee of equal access, meaning that anyone can get health care regardless of income. However, the government sets the medical fees, which means we have absurdities like if you ask a doctor two questions during a visit, they only get paid for answering the first one. So many make you make a second appointment to answer the second question -- which can take weeks, since there is a shortage of doctors and nurses, because many go to the States to make more money, and not enough doctors are in training, because the income levels that family doctors make do not make the profession attractive to intelligent motivated young people. The resulting crisis is that we have horrendous waiting times for many procedures because there aren't enough doctors, nurses, and diagnostic equipment to go round. This results in queue jumping, often achieved by going to the States for diagnostic procedures, that can take months to get in Canada but that you can get next day across the border, thus allowing you to get into the queue for treatment months earlier.

So far no one seems to have come up with a way to make a government run system had adequate resources (or moderate the demand for a free service) or a private system with equal access. I do hear, however, that the system in Singapore, which involves compulsory medical savings accounts for all citizens, with subsidies for the poor, works better than most.
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by Johnf514 » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:54 am

Prodigal Son wrote: In the US, health care is a market commodity. Those who can afford it pay for it and so the market produces enough health care professionals to meet the demand at the price people are willing to pay. The resulting crisis is that many people can't afford the market price of health care and so don't get any.
You bring up a fantastic angle that I didn't even consider: our capitalistic ways have permeated into our health care system. It drives up prices and artificially reduces supply for a service that people cannot "shop around" for. It is amazing our country has let this go on for so long.

From your post, it sounds as if a state-provided health care system is good for a younger population with less income and less health problems; while a market system works for an older population with more income/capital available and more health problems. We have got to find a middle.

By the way, sorry for taking this off topic. I have heard of Tercel's getting upwards of 50 MPG when driven nicely. :)
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by Prodigal Son » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:37 am

Johnf514 wrote:
Prodigal Son wrote:our capitalistic ways have permeated into our health care system. It drives up prices and artificially reduces supply for a service that people cannot "shop around" for.
Not really, in fact, it is the opposite of artificial: the market drives prices. Markets are good at discovering the true value of a product. If prices are too high, that drives buyers out of the market. If prices are too low, that drives suppliers out of the market. In a free market, buyers and sellers negotiate prices to a point of equilibrium. That is not an artificial price: it is the true market value of the commodity.

The problem is that if your allow the market to set prices for health care services, you set them to a level that many people cannot afford. That's the US problem. On the other hand, if you artificially lower the price of health care services, as the Canadian government does (not really to zero, since drugs, dentists, eye exams, and a bunch of other things aren't covered, but substantially below market rates), you increase demand for the services. At the same time, you cap the amount that doctors are allowed to charge the government, which drives suppliers out of the market. The result is that everyone is equally eligible for health care, and everybody has to wait for it. Need a new hip? The wait is 18 months.

If you live in the US and you need a new hip, if you are rich you get a new hip right away and if you are poor, you don't get a new hip at all.

If you live in Canada, rich or poor, you get a new hip, but you have to wait 18 agonizing months for it, during which time your health will deteriorate further due to pain and lack of exercise. (If you are really rich, of course, you simply drive to Buffalo and get a new hip right away.)

The system in Singapore, from the little I have read, seems to blend the two approaches quite well. Medical savings accounts are compulsory, and they are subsidized for the poor, but you pay for your own care with the money in your own medical savings account, at the market price for the care you want. That allows the market to set prices and therefore to ensure adequate supply of services, while still assuring access to the poor.

It is generally true that if you are poor, you are better off in Canada than the US, but if you are middle class or rich, you are better of in the US.
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by Johnf514 » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:33 pm

Prodigal Son wrote:Not really, in fact, it is the opposite of artificial: the market drives prices. Markets are good at discovering the true value of a product. If prices are too high, that drives buyers out of the market. If prices are too low, that drives suppliers out of the market. In a free market, buyers and sellers negotiate prices to a point of equilibrium. That is not an artificial price: it is the true market value of the commodity.
I may have misspoke - what I meant by "artificial" was that because our price is controlled by a market, it is artificially higher than a state-run organization. Reflecting on my use of the word "artifical," and the context in which I used it, I should have stated my thoughts as you did. :)

We must get back on topic, eventually.
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by SteveUK » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:10 pm

I work in the National Health Service. There is never and can never be a place for profit in health care.

My tax and national insurance is about 36% of my salary. This is how the NHS and various other government things like welfare etc. are paid for. On top of that when you buy things you pay 17.5% VAT.

Desiel costs around £1.38 per litre and petrol is around £1.30 per litre.

or $10.11 per gallon and $9.63 per gallon respectively.

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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by SnD » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:49 pm

Are you guys using wikipedia to provide factual information? That's almost as qualifed as quoting AOL subscribers.

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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by Prodigal Son » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:16 pm

SteveUK wrote:There is never and can never be a place for profit in health care.
This is a misconception. Doctors and nurses receive salaries. That is the profit for their labor. Drug companies, of course, make corporate profits on the drugs they sell to the NHS. Government run health care systems run in the market, not outside of it, and market forces shape the decision making of all the players in the market. The government has to set salaries high enough to attract people to study medicine and to practice in the UK in sufficient numbers, it has to buy drugs at the price drug companies are willing to sell them for. It is not profit that disappears from health care in a government run system (though that is always the propaganda word that government use, since people have been taught to think of profit as a dirty word, in the state run schools with their bureaucrat mandated curriculum). What is really going on is that the government is regulating access to health care, thus removing the market discipline from the consumption of health care.

The government is not and cannot eliminate profit from the provision of health care. What it can and is doing is eliminating or reducing cost from the consumption of health care.
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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by SteveUK » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:17 pm

Yes, drug companies make a profit from the NHS and yes I get paid for my labour, but you cannot have profit in the provision of health care. It is not fair for someone to be denied treatment on their abiltiy to pay.

In the UK two people develop cancer, one rich, one poor. Both are entitled to the same care, same drugs and same treatment.

In the US two people develop cancer, one rich, one poor. The poor person dies.

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Re: Toyota Tercel VS. The Fuel Pumps.

Post by Leedeth » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:55 pm

SnD wrote:Are you guys using wikipedia to provide factual information? That's almost as qualifed as quoting AOL subscribers.
:roll: So why are you bashing Wikipedia.

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