Car won't start unless clutch is pressed

[Rope-Pusher]

It's not like there is a place waiting for a switch on the side of the trans case or on the external shift linkage. I doubt you want someone drilling and tapping your trans case at their own discretion. It might be something you could add to the external shift linkage on some cars, but there wouldn't be room to do it on others. Now you've added the liability of jury-rigging a switch and hoping that it never fails or gets loose and interferes with shifting.
If I were King, I'd insist that you hire a trunk monkey to start the car up whenever he sees you waving a banana from the front window of your house.

[theholycow]

It's not like there is a place waiting for a switch on the side of the trans case or on the external shift linkage.

I have no experience, but I imagine it wouldn't be any more difficult than a Reverse switch, which does exist. At worst, there would be a Reverse switch on every gear and when none are active then you know it's in neutral. Is there any reason it can't be done at the shifter instead of the transmission? I can imagine a simple design that would work on any car, though I don't know if it's being used.

I just don't see a neutral safety switch being a particularly difficult technological hurdle, with all the engineering that goes into things like remote starters, cars, and computers...this is the internet age, not the bronze age.

[Rope-Pusher]

It's not like there is a place waiting for a switch on the side of the trans case or on the external shift linkage.

I have no experience, but I imagine it wouldn't be any more difficult than a Reverse switch, which does exist. At worst, there would be a Reverse switch on every gear and when none are active then you know it's in neutral. Is there any reason it can't be done at the shifter instead of the transmission? I can imagine a simple design that would work on any car, though I don't know if it's being used.

I just don't see a neutral safety switch being a particularly difficult technological hurdle, with all the engineering that goes into things like remote starters, cars, and computers...this is the internet age, not the bronze age.

If the Amish transmission were still a rising star, they would be making plans for modifications or new design elements to include a Neutral safety switch or at least a neutral position sensor, but to a great extent they are just trying to ride it into the ground without investing any extra money or manpower. Some transmission designs might be easily adapted to supply this feature, but others would pose more of a challenge.
As far as integration into the external shift linkage, there are so many differences here in shift system design that, again, some designs would be easily adaptable and others ...not so much.
As with most things, integrating the feature into the original design usually gives better results than trying to hang it on like a bandage after the fact.

Whether at the shifter or at the trans, the reliability of the design would have to be very high and you wouldn't want the sensor to degrade the shift feel into or out of Neutral. In many cases, the back-up light switch does degrade the Reverse shift feel, but that's just once every 20 - 100 shifts that we choose Reverse. Imagine how important it would be to not add noise, drag, etc. to each shift as it crosses the Neutral plane.

I would also think that if the car had to be parked in Neutral, there had better be a very functional park brake and that the next step on the road to liability is to make sure that the park brake is applied surely each time the car is parked. That isn't easy to determine by lever or cable positioning, so I think that would chase you into using electric park brake actuation. That brings us to the end of the Earth as we know it - No more hand-brake turns.

[IMBoring25]

It's not like there is a place waiting for a switch on the side of the trans case or on the external shift linkage.

I have no experience, but I imagine it wouldn't be any more difficult than a Reverse switch, which does exist. At worst, there would be a Reverse switch on every gear and when none are active then you know it's in neutral. Is there any reason it can't be done at the shifter instead of the transmission? I can imagine a simple design that would work on any car, though I don't know if it's being used.

I just don't see a neutral safety switch being a particularly difficult technological hurdle, with all the engineering that goes into things like remote starters, cars, and computers...this is the internet age, not the bronze age.

If the Amish transmission were still a rising star, they would be making plans for modifications or new design elements to include a Neutral safety switch or at least a neutral position sensor, but to a great extent they are just trying to ride it into the ground without investing any extra money or manpower. Some transmission designs might be easily adapted to supply this feature, but others would pose more of a challenge.
As far as integration into the external shift linkage, there are so many differences here in shift system design that, again, some designs would be easily adaptable and others ...not so much.
As with most things, integrating the feature into the original design usually gives better results than trying to hang it on like a bandage after the fact.

Whether at the shifter or at the trans, the reliability of the design would have to be very high and you wouldn't want the sensor to degrade the shift feel into or out of Neutral. In many cases, the back-up light switch does degrade the Reverse shift feel, but that's just once every 20 - 100 shifts that we choose Reverse. Imagine how important it would be to not add noise, drag, etc. to each shift as it crosses the Neutral plane.

I would also think that if the car had to be parked in Neutral, there had better be a very functional park brake and that the next step on the road to liability is to make sure that the park brake is applied surely each time the car is parked. That isn't easy to determine by lever or cable positioning, so I think that would chase you into using electric park brake actuation. That brings us to the end of the Earth as we know it - No more hand-brake turns.

Ironically, the only time I've seen an electronic parking brake in the news was for the 2003 redesign of the Lincoln LS, at the same time they eliminated the availability of the manual transmission.

[theholycow]

Ok, here's one model of remote starter that supports manual transmissions: Viper 5301 Responder LE. It uses the first strategy I mentioned, where it requires you to leave the vehicle running and shut down with the remote, to assure the system that you left it in neutral.
http://www.directeddealers.com/manuals/ ... 05_web.pdf
From page 24:

Manual transmission vehicles
If the vehicle has manual transmission the proper steps must be followed before leaving the parked vehicle, or the remote start feature is disabled. This process is called MTS, manual transmission start.
1. While the vehicle is running, put the transmission in neutral.
2. Press the vehicle’s foot brake.
3. Apply the emergency brake.
4. Release the vehicle’s foot brake.
Note: Pressing the brake again after this step will disable the remote start feature.
5. Using the remote control, activate the remote start within 15 seconds. The parking lights fash 5-times confrming that the remote start is active.
6. If the parking lights do not fash 5 times, you have not entered manual transmission mode and will need to repeat steps 1 thru 5.
7. Turn Off the ignition (the car should stay running when key is turned Off).
8. Exit the vehicle.
9. Lock the doors with the remote. (the vehicle should shut Off when locking the system).
You can now remote start the vehicle. If a door is opened before the next remote start activation, the system will not remote start.

To drive your vehicle after it has been remote started:
1. Get in without stepping on the brake.
2. Insert the ignition key and turn it to the On position.
3. Now, step on the brake.
The remote control plays the remote start shutdown tone. You have now taken direct control from the remote start system.

Compustar also makes remote starters that work the same way with manual transmissions.

[LHOswald]

that seems like an assload of steps for something like a remote starter...

[theholycow]

Yeah, they wrote it in quite an assload. I think the Compustar has a couple less steps. Either way, it's pretty much as simple as just pressing the start button before turning the key to off ("pit stop mode"), then pressing the stop button from outside the car. That assures the starter that you couldn't have left it in gear.

[LHOswald]

unless you duct taped the clutch down...

[comingbackdown]

Imagine a neutral safety like this...
You place a bar across all of the forward shift gates, and when it's in gear, it presses the bar and trips the switch.
Wire up the backup light switch into this, and there's your detection.

Doable?

[Tups]

You could also install a micro switch in every gate and wire them together so that when one is triggered, the circuit closes and tells the remote starter that the car is in gear.

[theholycow]

Those are two of the first 3 ideas I came up with. The other was a rod or 2 strings attached to the shifter that get pulled/pushed and it only triggers the neutral switch when it's at one length.

Then I thought of optical sensors, and various other ideas...there's a million ways to do it, and I'm sure somebody has done it successfully somewhere.

[Rope-Pusher]

Those are two of the first 3 ideas I came up with. The other was a rod or 2 strings attached to the shifter that get pulled/pushed and it only triggers the neutral switch when it's at one length.

Then I thought of optical sensors, and various other ideas...there's a million ways to do it, and I'm sure somebody has done it successfully somewhere.

So, are you ready to put your financial liability on the line for some home-brewed system? What you do on your own car is your business, but what you provide for others to use is another matter altogether. How long are the switch contacts or sensors going to keep working for? How sensitive is it to misadjustment? How about to wear? 2 years from now, when it fails, do you want your asp dragged into court over it? Safety-related items need very high reliability and confidence levels, which require lots of testing to verify, in all ranges of temperatures, humidity levels, after coke spills out of the cupholders, etc. The installation has to be error-proofed so it can't be mispositioned or misinstalled by that kid you're paying minimum wage to. Torque on the fasteners has to be controlled so that none are stripped-out or left loose. Is it worth the time and expense to get into all this for the once or twice a month that someone with an Amish transmission comes by wanting a remote starter installed?

[comingbackdown]

Those are two of the first 3 ideas I came up with. The other was a rod or 2 strings attached to the shifter that get pulled/pushed and it only triggers the neutral switch when it's at one length.

Then I thought of optical sensors, and various other ideas...there's a million ways to do it, and I'm sure somebody has done it successfully somewhere.

So, are you ready to put your financial liability on the line for some home-brewed system? What you do on your own car is your business, but what you provide for others to use is another matter altogether. How long are the switch contacts or sensors going to keep working for? How sensitive is it to misadjustment? How about to wear? 2 years from now, when it fails, do you want your asp dragged into court over it? Safety-related items need very high reliability and confidence levels, which require lots of testing to verify, in all ranges of temperatures, humidity levels, after coke spills out of the cupholders, etc. The installation has to be error-proofed so it can't be mispositioned or misinstalled by that kid you're paying minimum wage to. Torque on the fasteners has to be controlled so that none are stripped-out or left loose. Is it worth the time and expense to get into all this for the once or twice a month that someone with an Amish transmission comes by wanting a remote starter installed?

Point is, the manufacturer of the remote start kit should've thought of this crap a loooooooooooong time ago.

They build it, they test it, other people install it.
We're just musing on ideas, here.

[theholycow]

So, are you ready to put your financial liability on the line for some home-brewed system?

No, and neither are installers. That's why it's so hard to find one who will install on a manual.

How long are the switch contacts or sensors going to keep working for? How sensitive is it to misadjustment? How about to wear?

My ideas were fail-safe. If they fail, they falsely report that it's in gear, not that it's in neutral.

Granted, it's not impossible to fail the other way, but no more likely than any other failures, such as those that cause cars parked in a garage to randomly catch fire.

Is it worth the time and expense to get into all this for the once or twice a month that someone with an Amish transmission comes by wanting a remote starter installed?

I doubt it's even that often for most installers...and no, it's not worth it. It's still fun to think about the possible technology and wish that it was available.

[Rope-Pusher]

So, are you ready to put your financial liability on the line for some home-brewed system?

No, and neither are installers. That's why it's so hard to find one who will install on a manual. Precisely my point.

How long are the switch contacts or sensors going to keep working for? How sensitive is it to misadjustment? How about to wear?

My ideas were fail-safe. If they fail, they falsely report that it's in gear, not that it's in neutral. (Remember, every time you think you have it idiot-proofed, someone invents a better idiot and it fails in the way you didn't want it to. Switch contacts can get arced such that they don't conduct any more or such that they stick in the "on" condition)

Granted, it's not impossible to fail the other way, but no more likely than any other failures, such as those that cause cars parked in a garage to randomly catch fire. (And that's after they tested those vehicles for millions of miles of driving, in all weather conditions, but before Jesus (Hay-Zoos), the village idiot, got hired at the wiring harness plant in Mexico - you can't catch every failure mode, but a good Failure Mode Effects Analysis will steer you to improving the design, error-proofing the assembly process, end-of-line testing, etc.)

Is it worth the time and expense to get into all this for the once or twice a month that someone with an Amish transmission comes by wanting a remote starter installed?

I doubt it's even that often for most installers...and no, it's not worth it. It's still fun to think about the possible technology and wish that it was available.

I wish you could just print in the owner's manual that the operator is responsible for making sure it was parked in Neutral with the parking brake set, but courts have upheld that "Nobody reads the owner's manuals" and you can't absolve the manufacturer of blame that way. Ever been on a boat? They have garish warning tags pop-riveted to the instrument panel, warning for every way the operator might possibly earn a Darwin award. I'm wondering if that would be acceptable for automobiles as well. They do use them on the sun visors, but they're unseen when not in use.

...And don't forget Coles Law