Hi all,

I've been in this forum for quite some time, but never posted anything other than reading people's driving style and all to mentally prepare myself for a manual car.

I drove a 4-speed automatic for nearly 4 years on a Corolla 2009 LE and although it was a decent car, it seemed the car wasn't as responding as I would want to especially when I need additional torque to go uphill or to pass sidepass someone on a highway. I always end upshifting from D to 3 (because I don't like to go full throttle) to rev it up and then back to D. So I changed it to a 5-speed manual Corolla 2012 XRS instead, and I've been driving it for a month now. I like driving and I wanted to have more control on the car.

I took a total of 4 hours of manual driving lessons with 2 different instructors. I've watched some videos from "theholycow" signature (very nice by the way), but I feel like I'm still not getting the basics despite practicing the no-gas start technique to feel the friction point. I even close my eyes during this practice to enhance my senses instead of relying on my eyes (to feel every motion and listening to every sound with my mind). Maybe I'm still too impatient but I can't seem to launch as smooth and as fast from standstill as when I was driving automatic. This is what happens:

- Launch very slowly
- Reved up the engine and jerks to the front
- Stall and people in the back are honking
Is it because I'm still not yet feeling the friction point?

My other problem is upshifting from 1st to 2nd, and then to 3rd. When I'm driving slow and pressure free, I can upshift very smoothly at ~2000RPM. However, when I need to accelerate faster (like on a main street during rush hour), I shift ~3000RPM but I can't seem to catch the engine drop fast and smooth enough until it falls under ~1800RPM. The car accelerates relatively fast and then drops in speed before picking up speed again after like 2 or 3 seconds. It's mentally frustrating because I feel like I'm missing something. Is there any exercise to practice my hand shift (to shift faster) and my leg coordination?

In most videos, I see people slamming the stick in gear to look cool (they even say it -_-'). However, when I'm shifting, I tend to stop at the neutral gear a bit before putting it in the desired gear. In other words, my shifting is like a 2-step motion. Is it because the car is still new (just a month old) or am I being too soft to the stick?

Lastly, stop signs. I know a lot of people cheat during stop signs by keeping the car rolling a bit and pick up from there at 2nd gear to avoid starting from 1st. I try to do that too. However, here's a scenario I'm often into. On a street between 2 stop signs, I accelerate from 2nd and shift to 3rd gear because I feel like the engine is reving at 2500RPM. After shifting, I have to start braking after one or 2 seconds because I'm coming to the stop sign. Now because I'm already in the 3rd gear, I disengage the clutch while braking, leave the car rolling a bit, put in 2nd gear, and then slowly release the clutch. Most of the time, it works, and there are times I would stall. I could leave it in 2nd gear the whole time, but I feel the engine working too much. Am I being paranoid?

I drove my friend's automatic the other day, and to be hoenst, I don't like it anymore. It's like something's missing and I nearly fell asleep behind the wheel...

Sounds like you're doing it right. A month is nowhere near enough to be consistent. Expect to put tens of thousands of miles on the car before it truly becomes second nature.

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'12 Chevy Sonic 1.4T 6MT
'08 Giant Trance 1

That's a downshift, not an upshift...and why are you afraid of using the entire accelerator pedal travel range? A Corolla isn't going to pull a wheelie or get sideways if your right foot gets too aggressive. At low RPM the difference between 60% throttle and WOT isn't very much power at all, the second half of the pedal's travel is basically just controlling the slushbox unless you're at high RPM (and if you're at high RPM then you're already prepared for all the blistering power that the car can muster).

Don't close your eyes. Use every tool at your disposal - all appropriate senses, all indications (look not only at movement of the car but also at the tachometer). Save the heroics for when you're confident and practiced. You wouldn't want your kid to ride a bike with no hands and no training wheels the first time, you'd want his hands on the handlebars until his sense of balance is great, only then would you expect him to say "look dad, no hands!".

Yup. It's normal. With lots of seat time and patience and anguish you'll improve. The exercises in my meta-sig, which you said you're practiced, are about all I know to speed it up but they're not magic.

You could give it a little gas during the shift. That statement is purposely vague...just fool around with it until you find something you like.

You're probably being too soft. Go ahead and flick it directly to its destination without any artificial waiting. Don't forget that it doesn't have to travel around the corners drawn on the diagram; actual shifting is straight or a straight diagonal line (except extreme sideways shifts like 5th to 2nd).

Don't cheat. You'll eventually get a ticket for that - and the insurance rate hike is much more painful than the fine on the ticket.
In that repeat-stop-sign situation, forget the cruising shift to 3rd. Accelerate to speed and coast in neutral until you stop at the next stop sign...especially if you're going to brake after a couple seconds.

If it's really like that, you can afford to roll for two seconds in 2nd at 2500RPM.

Those times that you stall, you're going too slow for 2nd. Your options are:
1. Shift into 1st instead (might be difficult or might encourage double-clutching)
2. "rolling 2nd launch" - this is foot motions like launching from a stop, but you're not stopped and you're in 2nd instead of 1st.

_________________
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig

I meant to write "I always end up shifting from D to 3" and not "upshift". I floored the gas pedal once on highway with a very slight incline and the engine made a huge sound like it was accumulating boost before sprinting. It wasn't roaring, and it felt secure, but I've always prefer the gradual sound increments.


I've always push/pull vertically and diagonally, never right-angled.


That's one thing I haven't considered... -_-'


Thanks, I'll try that.

give it some time and don't be so hard on yourself. it may take several months to feel comfortable and drive quickly. even without focusing on all the technique you've heard/read about, you will get smoother and quicker with practice. some of the technique is helpful though. sometimes it's better to not pay so much attention to what you're doing.

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DAS PRNDLSTICK!!

2-Time SS Traitor

I don't have much to add, but I do have a question and a couple of minor comments:



Where did you find a driving school that teaches manual transmissions? I didn't know there were any out there...



Your visual movement is your primary indicator, so you really shouldn't be closing your eyes, even to learn. Think about it this way---you'll never actually close your eyes (except maybe to blink) when you're on the road driving. The sound of the car and the feel of motion are secondary sensory input. Definitely rely on your vision first.



You don't need to do that "2-step" motion. Your shift lever movement should be one fluid movement as you move the shift lever between gears. By slowing your shift lever movement, I think you're causing the other issue you described (having the revs drop too much between shifts) and if you just shift in one fluid motion, you'll probably catch the revs falling right where they should be most of the time.



You can run your car forever in 2nd gear at 2500 RPM. In fact, you can run your car in ANY gear forever at 2500 RPM. The engine doesn't care what gear the transmission is in, it only knows RPM. So the engine doesn't care if you're in 1st gear at 2500 RPM or 6th gear at 2500 RPM, it's all the same to the engine. That said, think about what happens when you're on a long highway trip.....most cars will run somewhere around 2500 RPM in their top gear at typical highway speeds. So the engine might be running 2500 RPM for several hours without ever slowing down. Engines are designed to operate like that...

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I just walked in a driving school and asked for manual driving lessons. They scheduled me a time slot and that's it. I live in Montreal (Canada), but I assume this is the same anywhere else in the world.


I guess you and "theholycow" are right. I find myself too dependent on my vision and not enough with my other senses. I was practicing like that in the empty back parking lot at work (practice after working hours) and there aren't any cars at that time. But anyhow, I'll use my eyes again during practice.


I know I don't need that "2-step" motion. I feel a small resistance just before crossing the neutral gear when I'm shifting, and that kind of interrupted my motion. I don't feel it when the car is standstill (regardless of whether the engine is on or not), but I do feel it when the car is moving. Could it be that I'm being over-sensitive?


I know what you mean, and I agree. I tend to just leave the car roll and brake arriving at the stop sign. In 3rd gear, I would just leave it in 2500RPM, but in 2nd gear, I can really feel the engine braking and slowing the car by a lot forcing me to give it some gas before arriving at the stop sign. Perhaps I'm still not use to this feeling.

The small amount of resistance you feel is probably the disengagement and re-engagement of the synchronizers as you shift from one gear to another. It's normal and not at all harmful, so don't feel guilty moving the shift lever swiftly from one gear to the next. Think of a manual transmission as a positive engagement mechanism. It's supposed to feel mechanical.



Yeah, engine braking is definitely more noticeable/stronger as you drop down to lower gears. I actually love the feeling of accelerating in a low gear like 2nd and then coasting with the strong engine braking I get in that gear. I don't do it much in 1st gear though, unless I'm crawling in slow traffic or something...

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Alright, I'll use a bit more force when I'm shifting to get the motion more fluidic.


Perhaps I'll try that and see if I like it. Thanks for suggesting.

Ok, so I kept practicing during rush hour and in empty parking lots. I definitely haven't mastered the basics, and I haven't rid of my "automatic" driving bad habits. Here are my observations:

- I manage to roll the car from standstill a lot faster right after a cold start without jerking. I would clutch-in, release the brakes, and then balance the gas and the clutch pedals. It's a bit faster than when I drove an automatic, and this feels very good.

- After running a bit, getting the car to roll from a stop sign and from an intersection light is still very slow. I tried to find the friction point like I did from cold start, but I always end up stalling. I then put the clutch to its friction point, release the brake, and then gas in a bit like I just started to learn driving manual. By the way, stalling does not make me as nervous or as stress as I used to. People usually honk and sidepass me, but I don't care anymore. It's not like they'll be going any faster with traffic lights anyway.

- When shifting gears, I have a bad habit of clutching-in faster than getting my right foot completely off the gas. This results in reving the engine a bit higher than intended. I've been doing this all along and thought it was normal until the "engine reving sound" VS "shifting time" was not in sync and that bothered me. By this I mean the following: the moment I clutch-in, I would expect the engine to stop reving higher but I hear the engine reving a bit more. It bothered me the entire time I had the car, and I only recently realised my right foot was not completely off the gas pedal. I'm slowly more conscious about it and am trying to correct this bad habit very slowly.

- The shifter feels solid with a fair amount of resistance when engaging into a gear while the car is running. This is particularly noticeable while shifting anywhere in between 1 to 3 at higher acceleration. This slows down my shifts by a second or 2. I know it's normal in the beginning, but when I hear that people shifts within a tenth of a second, I feel like I'm crawling. I'm used to accelerate rapidly and this slow shift kind of visually throw me off when driving on main streets (fortunately, I'm driving out of rush hour most of the time, so no pressure from behind).

Mastering the basics can take a long time. I guess it depends on what your definition of mastery is, but I wouldn't say that I've mastered all of the basics. I still have problems sometimes with rev-matching my downshifts.


Did you practice in a parking lot after the car was warmed up? Or just when it was cold? When I first started, I drove in the parking lot some to find the friction point, drove some back streets, then went back to the same parking lot and did more. Also, depending on your vehicle, your A/C could be playing a big role in having problems finding the right revs.


Just get completely off the gas before you put your foot on the clutch then. But I understand having to unlearn skills you've used, so it certainly can take time.


The tenth of a second shifting isn't the norm. That's people trying to do it very very quickly. Just shift at a comfortable pace. Once you don't have any problems with the basic stuff, THEN go back and work on shifting super quickly or heel-toeing or whatever.

Patience, my friend. It'll get there. Remember: have fun driving too, it's not all about being perfect

_________________
'11 Ford Fiesta Hatchback SE 5-MT
'97 Honda Civic EX 4-AT

For Pony!

During weekdays, when I leave the parking lot at work, I would be able to roll very quickly without trouble (hence, from cold start). However, when I practice in a empty parking lot on a weekend, the car is already warmed up (because it's a 20-minute drive from my place). I try to find the right revs depending on how close to the friction point I am, but I think I need to work on getting to the friction point more accurately first before balancing.


Yeah, you're right, I should be focusing on clutch control before doing anything else.


You can bet that although I'm a bit frustrated at times, I am enjoying shifting. Ever since I started driving, I'm enjoying it very much. It just never occurred to me while I was learning. I do regret not learning manual at first.

pre emptively bring clutch foot to roughly where FP is
hold there until u actually need to launch
when launch just do a mini see saw

no stalling
no free reving noobness

fr4n,

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm doing for the moment. I'm hoping to improve to the point where it becomes natural. Taking all of the above advice into account, shifting gears did become second nature. Although I still feel the resistance, I'm not so bothered anymore and it somehow feels more natural.

good to hear champ
with clutch control
its less "bringing clutch up slowly"
than it is "bring to FP and pause"

hard to explain
but see saw is your best friend
dip gas and drop clutch (to FP) and pause
i say drop since theres confusion on how to release clutch

the time it takes to bring clutch from floor to FP should be the time it takes you to flick on your turning signal.