Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by theholycow »

IMO, a hybrid or electric pickup might be a good idea. Pickup is a good platform, easy to add lots of batteries and drivetrain stuff; very popular and very visible for marketing; and could definitely help with the CAFE truck fleet just as well as more SUVs.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by tankinbeans »

I'm more interested in fuel cells rather than battery powered electric cars. If infrastructure could be built up and an efficient way to crack hydrogen from water developed the range anxiety issue could be moot.

A lot of my driving is done in fits and spurts where electrics could be a difficult proposition, unless fuel cells could be made viable.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by theholycow »

There isn't some efficient way to crack water that's just waiting to be discovered. Cracking water is the equal and opposite reaction of burning hydrogen; it requires the same energy that is released by burning because it is unburning. Burning uncracks it, producing water again. (Of course 100% efficiency is impossible so it actually takes more than the same energy.)

It's okay for hydrogen not to be an energy source, but merely an energy storage medium instead. Hydrogen acts as batteries, not as a natural resource. There's nothing wrong with that; it allows energy production (and all of the problems associated, such as pollution) to be centralized and decouples vehicles from being dependent a single energy source, allowing them to get their energy from any source. If people want nuclear, tidal, geothermal, wood, coal, 5-year-olds running on treadmills, or extra thetans from scientology...whatever, the cracking facility doesn't care, just feed it some energy.

I'd be very okay with that, but my hybrid or electric pickup post (in response to the hybrid or electric SUV posts on the previous page of this thread) was about a more immediate context...those technologies are mainstream already, whereas hydrogen isn't already in every third driveway.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by theholycow »

Yes please!

Now I just need to find someone selling one for...uhh...forty bucks.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by AHTOXA »

watkins wrote:
AHTOXA wrote:New neighbor moved in a week ago. She's about my age and with a dog.

Who's got two thumbs and a new date tomorrow? This guy.
So...?
What, you want all the details now?
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by potownrob »

AHTOXA wrote:
watkins wrote:
AHTOXA wrote:New neighbor moved in a week ago. She's about my age and with a dog.

Who's got two thumbs and a new date tomorrow? This guy.
So...?
What, you want all the details now?
yes, yes we do 8) :) :twisted: :!:
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by Teamwork »

theholycow wrote:There isn't some efficient way to crack water that's just waiting to be discovered. Cracking water is the equal and opposite reaction of burning hydrogen; it requires the same energy that is released by burning because it is unburning. Burning uncracks it, producing water again. (Of course 100% efficiency is impossible so it actually takes more than the same energy.)

It's okay for hydrogen not to be an energy source, but merely an energy storage medium instead. Hydrogen acts as batteries, not as a natural resource. There's nothing wrong with that; it allows energy production (and all of the problems associated, such as pollution) to be centralized and decouples vehicles from being dependent a single energy source, allowing them to get their energy from any source. If people want nuclear, tidal, geothermal, wood, coal, 5-year-olds running on treadmills, or extra thetans from scientology...whatever, the cracking facility doesn't care, just feed it some energy.

I'd be very okay with that, but my hybrid or electric pickup post (in response to the hybrid or electric SUV posts on the previous page of this thread) was about a more immediate context...those technologies are mainstream already, whereas hydrogen isn't already in every third driveway.
One of the big problems for me with assuming the "compact" suv class (probably most of them) is I don't understand the throw around of weight. I was lightly perusing the compact scene for instance and with a base 4 cylinder engine and AWD most of these things are 3500 lbs+. I was surprised to see the Rav 4 hybrid which looks otherwise pretty good on paper weighs 4000 lbs and comes with a slightly smaller fuel tank even. In the city you get about 10 mpg better then the N/A base engines but on the highway it's literally a 1 mpg difference. Price different as well to a middling trim level N/A is probably about 5-6k also. I'm not sure if I'm sensing a value proposition unless there's a tax incentive but I'm honestly not sure how those work.

A lot of these models now are running 2 tier engines with an upgrade which is nice but a lot of the reviews say the upgraded engine (typically a turbo 4) feels fairly weak. Considering most of them have the output of what I am driving now (maybe a little bit more) I'm picturing if I added 600-700 lbs to my car how it would feel.. and I would probably say it would be "acceptably adequate".

I wonder what really weighs down the Rav 4 hybrid though... is it the hybrid battery pack system or the AWD- or a combination.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by Rope-Pusher »

[quote="TeamworkI wonder what really weighs down the Rav 4 hybrid though... is it the hybrid battery pack system or the AWD- or a combination.[/quote]
Yes

In general, you also pick up more weight if the area of the windows is greater - glass is heavy. CUVs and SUVs tend to have taller greenhouses.

Yever pict up a set of 6-gage jumper cables? The wiring for the battery pack can be heavy as well.

Tarzan wheels are often bigger and heavier for CUVs / SUVs as well.

Exrah differential and axle and propshaft, Oh My.

and a transfer case / PTU to drive the exrah axle.

Enny thyme ewe go with limited slip or locking differential, you increase the duty cycle of one of the side gears and axles, since they might now see more than half the torque output of the differential, witch they are usually limited to. They may knead to be boeuf dup = heavier.

Somewhat more body structure and suspension boeuf to take the off-rode bumps.

It owl ads up.
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by potownrob »

Teamwork wrote: One of the big problems for me with assuming the "compact" suv class (probably most of them) is I don't understand the throw around of weight. I was lightly perusing the compact scene for instance and with a base 4 cylinder engine and AWD most of these things are 3500 lbs+. I was surprised to see the Rav 4 hybrid which looks otherwise pretty good on paper weighs 4000 lbs and comes with a slightly smaller fuel tank even. In the city you get about 10 mpg better then the N/A base engines but on the highway it's literally a 1 mpg difference. Price different as well to a middling trim level N/A is probably about 5-6k also. I'm not sure if I'm sensing a value proposition unless there's a tax incentive but I'm honestly not sure how those work.

A lot of these models now are running 2 tier engines with an upgrade which is nice but a lot of the reviews say the upgraded engine (typically a turbo 4) feels fairly weak. Considering most of them have the output of what I am driving now (maybe a little bit more) I'm picturing if I added 600-700 lbs to my car how it would feel.. and I would probably say it would be "acceptably adequate".

I wonder what really weighs down the Rav 4 hybrid though... is it the hybrid battery pack system or the AWD- or a combination.
it has a friggin 2.5 litre gas engine and multiple electric motors, along with the batteries. the rear wheels are not even powered by the gas engine [they have their own electric motor(s)]. where hybrids really do better than gas is around town. may not kick the pants off of most sedans but, for someone who needs/really wants an SUV, i think it's an option worth considering.

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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by potownrob »

Teamwork wrote: A lot of these models now are running 2 tier engines with an upgrade which is nice but a lot of the reviews say the upgraded engine (typically a turbo 4) feels fairly weak. Considering most of them have the output of what I am driving now (maybe a little bit more) I'm picturing if I added 600-700 lbs to my car how it would feel.. and I would probably say it would be "acceptably adequate".
not sure which cars you're referring to. if the new cr-v, they put the turbo 1.5 litre 4 in it. i am not sure how much torque they expect to get out of that engine. probably used it mainly to get good MPG scores. something like a 1.8 turbo (like mine :twisted: ) probably would've been more suitable, but then again the competition doesn't seem to be putting more powerful engines in their small SUVs either (other than Tiguan)...
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by Teamwork »

potownrob wrote:not sure which cars you're referring to. if the new cr-v, they put the turbo 1.5 litre 4 in it. i am not sure how much torque they expect to get out of that engine. probably used it mainly to get good MPG scores. something like a 1.8 turbo (like mine :twisted: ) probably would've been more suitable, but then again the competition doesn't seem to be putting more powerful engines in their small SUVs either (other than Tiguan)...
A lot of this class after I'm sure many complaints now offer dual tier engines. Ford Escape, Hyundai Tucson, Kia Sportage, GMC Terrain, Chevy Equinox, Jeep Cherokee, Subaru Forester... (might've missed a few too). The only V6 options are with the Terrain and Cherokee which probably deliver better then the turbo 4 counter parts. Getting an enlarged turbo 4 "upgrade" isn't probably too far off from what I have now in terms of spec but in a heavier and lifted body which may not be the worst idea.

The Ford Escape 2.0L (which is probably a brother/sister of the ST engine) seems to get the most positive reviews along with the Forester. I see many complains with the Korean variants (the power doesn't align with the spec sheet/fuel economy is below the EPA), the Equinox doesn't have it's upgrade option yet I don't think... and the Subaru Forester is a well respected engine (again probably in the vein of the WRX) but going up that high is essentially a 34k proposition.

I would never buy a Jeep and not see it taking a risk in the reliability department. The Cherokee itself seems to have a laundry list of TSB's outstanding on this generation also...
it has a friggin 2.5 litre gas engine and multiple electric motors, along with the batteries. the rear wheels are not even powered by the gas engine [they have their own electric motor(s)]. where hybrids really do better than gas is around town. may not kick the pants off of most sedans but, for someone who needs/really wants an SUV, i think it's an option worth considering.
I'm not well versed in this market or hybrids so maybe I am looking past many variables but I don't see the garden variety Prius weighing more then maybe 3300 lbs (I may be really far off)? From everything I've been reading/seeing about this, the reviews feel positive, and the compromise feels nearly non-existent.

They say that the power here is more then the base N/A for the Rav4 and pretty much middle of the pack across the board which is nice that you can actually get a hybrid and not be unusably slow for NY driving... I really am curious again if real world commuting numbers for MPG are comparable, better, or worse then the EPA estimates. For vehicles of this nature I wouldn't be surprise if it was better or worse as those EPA tests are vacuum sealed flawed.
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Relevancy to raising these issues is because my fiancee is going to be up and out of her lease early next Spring. We're most likely going to buy a co-op/house in a compromised area of Long Island where both of our commutes are bound to go up in time/miles. She lives within walking distance of the school district she works in, and I am 12-13 miles away from my job. I will most likely bite the bullet and probably see a 25 mile commute to keep her closer to hers (I like the areas out east more anyway). She's looking to get into a small SUV though- more likely a subcompact but I think I could sell her into going into a compact. Gas really isn't an issue for her because she has/had a perk where she literally hasn't paid for any gas in the last 7 years which I foresee will continue on for atleast 5 more years. She has 0 care about driving dynamics either so I'm not going to stray her away from these type of cars :D
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by potownrob »

Teamwork wrote:
potownrob wrote:not sure which cars you're referring to. if the new cr-v, they put the turbo 1.5 litre 4 in it. i am not sure how much torque they expect to get out of that engine. probably used it mainly to get good MPG scores. something like a 1.8 turbo (like mine :twisted: ) probably would've been more suitable, but then again the competition doesn't seem to be putting more powerful engines in their small SUVs either (other than Tiguan)...
A lot of this class after I'm sure many complaints now offer dual tier engines. Ford Escape, Hyundai Tucson, Kia Sportage, GMC Terrain, Chevy Equinox, Jeep Cherokee, Subaru Forester... (might've missed a few too). The only V6 options are with the Terrain and Cherokee which probably deliver better then the turbo 4 counter parts. Getting an enlarged turbo 4 "upgrade" isn't probably too far off from what I have now in terms of spec but in a heavier and lifted body which may not be the worst idea.
oh, now i see what you were talking about. cr-v finally has a 2nd engine (albeit not really much better than the base engine unless tuned, plus all but the LX models get the turbo engine). Rav-4 used to have a V6 option but now just the 2.5 litre 4 (and the hybrid). probably wanted to keep costs down and not risk cannibalizing the highlander. the 2.5 isn't a bad engine, at least not in the camries eye drove recently. not sure eye'd trust the korean and american turbo engines (reliability wise), but could be decent.
The Ford Escape 2.0L (which is probably a brother/sister of the ST engine) seems to get the most positive reviews along with the Forester. I see many complains with the Korean variants (the power doesn't align with the spec sheet/fuel economy is below the EPA), the Equinox doesn't have it's upgrade option yet I don't think... and the Subaru Forester is a well respected engine (again probably in the vein of the WRX) but going up that high is essentially a 34k proposition.
foresters with the weak base engine can run well over 30k, which is disgusting. nice brown leather, but still disgusting.
I would never buy a Jeep and not see it taking a risk in the reliability department. The Cherokee itself seems to have a laundry list of TSB's outstanding on this generation also...
amen :shock:
it has a friggin 2.5 litre gas engine and multiple electric motors, along with the batteries. the rear wheels are not even powered by the gas engine [they have their own electric motor(s)]. where hybrids really do better than gas is around town. may not kick the pants off of most sedans but, for someone who needs/really wants an SUV, i think it's an option worth considering.
I'm not well versed in this market or hybrids so maybe I am looking past many variables but I don't see the garden variety Prius weighing more then maybe 3300 lbs (I may be really far off)? From everything I've been reading/seeing about this, the reviews feel positive, and the compromise feels nearly non-existent.

They say that the power here is more then the base N/A for the Rav4 and pretty much middle of the pack across the board which is nice that you can actually get a hybrid and not be unusably slow for NY driving... I really am curious again if real world commuting numbers for MPG are comparable, better, or worse then the EPA estimates. For vehicles of this nature I wouldn't be surprise if it was better or worse as those EPA tests are vacuum sealed flawed.
prius is smaller, FWD, smaller engine, probably smaller battery, slower, lower, smaller wheels, smaller windows, etc. unless you're going for the base rav4 le or need the better AWD system of the non-hybrid models, it's hard to pass up the hybrid for the regular rav4.
Relevancy to raising these issues is because my fiancee is going to be up and out of her lease early next Spring. We're most likely going to buy a co-op/house in a compromised area of Long Island where both of our commutes are bound to go up in time/miles. She lives within walking distance of the school district she works in, and I am 12-13 miles away from my job. I will most likely bite the bullet and probably see a 25 mile commute to keep her closer to hers (I like the areas out east more anyway). She's looking to get into a small SUV though- more likely a subcompact but I think I could sell her into going into a compact. Gas really isn't an issue for her because she has/had a perk where she literally hasn't paid for any gas in the last 7 years which I foresee will continue on for atleast 5 more years. She has 0 care about driving dynamics either so I'm not going to stray her away from these type of cars :D
yeah, HR-V ftw :!: :D :twisted: :roll: :lol:
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by Teamwork »

oh, now i see what you were talking about. cr-v finally has a 2nd engine (albeit not really much better than the base engine unless tuned, plus all but the LX models get the turbo engine). Rav-4 used to have a V6 option but now just the 2.5 litre 4 (and the hybrid). probably wanted to keep costs down and not risk cannibalizing the highlander. the 2.5 isn't a bad engine, at least not in the camries eye drove recently. not sure eye'd trust the korean and american turbo engines (reliability wise), but could be decent.
Funny enough the Rav4 in v6 form apparently didn't draw a dime but I've seen the enthusiast crowd modding those. Toyota said it was just a poor seller as reasoning. I don't think there was any risk cannibalizing the Highlander because that is probably on everyone's top 3 list for mid sizes. I can see reasons why the Rav4 would not be on people's top 3 lists though...
foresters with the weak base engine can run well over 30k, which is disgusting. nice brown leather, but still disgusting.
The cost for this thing seems to be the worst of them all. It's funny because the design is probably the most archaic too... I'm sure with the right modifications this wagon could be pretty much a "WRX wagon" (just lacking manual) but it would be a very expensive proposition. At the end of the day sacrifice some space/ruggedness and get an STI/Golf R/Focus RS and you probably ended up saving money.
amen :shock:
What also hurts is the aesthetic of these vehicles on the exterior are pretty terrible. There seems to be no in between of generic box on wheels look to alien space ship. I would be embarrassed getting in and out of most of these types in public... Really the only 3 vehicles I may like from every angle aesthetically are probably the Jeep Grand Cherokee/Dodge Durango, Mazda CX5, and Ford Edge. That's speaking on a main stream level... The Luxury/Premium Utes while probably over priced seem to have much better aesthetics to them and less gimmicks.

Still if it was my money I would easily opt a large sedan. You can probably get a middling trim in a large barge with borderline luxury amenities for 35k... You can have a v6 with 300 hp and still see upper 20 MPG with actual driving dynamics...
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Re: Misc Thread VI: Return of the Threadi

Post by Rope-Pusher »

Yanno, they sell 1.25 million Jeep vehicles a year - they can't be all that bad, right?
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