I Hate Anti-American-Car Bigots!

Off-topic posts, quotes of the day and anything else you just would like to vent to the world. PG-13 or below PLEASE!
blauenlanze
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1708
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:47 am
Cars: 2017 BMW M240i 6MT
Location: San Francisco/Los Angeles, CA

Post by blauenlanze »

Leedeth wrote:The fact is that American cars are generally less reliable than Japanese cars. European cars are slightly more reliable than American cars, but I digress. Check a Lemon-Aid book.

My family van is a Windstar, and we haven't had any major problems with it, but that's because it is maintained properly. A friend's Windstar, same model year, had their transmission blow out just one week after the warranty expired.

I don't hate American cars. Some of them are well made. But in general, American cars are cheaply made and therefore fall apart a lot faster.
Here's some solid numbers from J.D. Power. If you distrust them, keep in mind that their rankings generally agree with Consumer Reports' and other places like Reliabilityindex.co.uk and one last site that I forgot about.

2006 index

1. Lexus
2. Honda
3. Skoda

2007 report, updated

1. Lexus
2-tied. Skoda/Honda
4. Toyota
15. Nissan/Subaru/Industry average
18. Ford
33 (last). Chrysler

You can also look at reliabilityindex.co.uk although their sample size is probably smaller than the JD Power's.
2007 BMW M240i 6MT
2006 Honda S2000 6MT (old)
2001 Honda Prelude SH 5MT (old)
2000 Toyota Camry V6 (old) auto
Thet'iko Nexaris
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 276
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:49 pm
Cars: 2002 Honda Civic
Location: United States

Post by Thet'iko Nexaris »

Reliability varies from vehicle to vehicle. Some are built better than others. My 92 Ford Crown Vic literally fell apart. My 94 Chevy pickup ran like a dream despite some minor issues.

American econo-cars and compact pickups/SUVs have a reputation of screwing up, however.
2002 Honda Civic EX
Image
watkins
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 15880
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:42 am
Cars: '08 Saab 9-5 Aero wagon
Location: Salem, MA

Post by watkins »

DrNick wrote:The other uncle has a 2003 Dodge Neon SXT, and a 2005 Honda Odyssey. He swears that he'll never buy American again, and that his Odyssey is much more reliable. I know for a fact that it's probably due to the driving styles. The Neon is mostly driven by his son, who's gotten into his fair share of accidents with the car. The front axle and frame are both bent (never fixed), but they blame the fact that it handles like quit on Dodge. My uncle barely even uses the Odyssey, and his son never uses it (it's on a lease so he doesn't want to rack up mileage) so it's no wonder that it's in much better condition than the abused, daily-driver Neon.
You must also realize that its a Neon. Neons are shitboxes right off the assembly line. Though the driving style certainly accentuates that.
User avatar
Azrael
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Location: Belmont, CA

Post by Azrael »

StrangeWill wrote:Simple enough:
Most American vehicle owners are thrilled when their car makes it to 100k miles.

I expect at least 200k, and more like 300k.

I've never had two transmissions FAIL on a Japanese car in such a short period of time, let alone at all.


American cars have a horrible reputation to be mechanically quit, I'll stop calling them trash once they stop producing trash*.

*This doesn't go for some of the nicer sporty cars, but generally Ford's & Chevy's daily drivers (cars, trucks, vans) = garbage compared to a foreign counterpart.

Also I don't hate, I think some of the best looking and sounding cars are American and from the 70s-90s.



And no, the solution to buy a sporty car is ridiculous, yes I like sporty cars, no I don't find it efficient to burn money to drive a fast car in rush hour traffic, it's bad for the fast car, I burn money in gas and parts, and I don't get to have FUN with it.

You can't say "well, American $40,000 compared to Japanese $14,000, yeah they're about the same, so obviously American is ok".
You confirm the OP's problem with Fanboys. Car reliability now is negligble with Edmunds (not related to Consumer Reports which has been debunked as a sponsor driven biased source) rates Domestic cars often higher than European cars.

I have owned both, had great and terrible experiences with both. There is no "generally" there is just machines. I had a Honda that bent all of its valves at 50K and now own a 80k 600+hp Camaro that has never left me stranded on the side of the road like our old 2000 BMW 540i (twice).

I also own a Domestic V8 with a 405hp LS6 that has gotten 33mpg, with an average of ~30mpg.

My 1988 Mustang GT had the motor pulled at 175k and that 5.0 was sold for $2,000 and was last seen running fine with over 200K on it. My own mother drives a 1992 Taurus Wagon with 237k on it (she refuses to get rid of that dinosaur).

Personal experience is not a determination. BTW the material and interior of my best friend's (and former partner) 2007 $35k Nissan 350Z is every bit as low quality as my wife's $32k 2002 Camaro SS; and worse than my Corvette's interior quality. So does that mean it sucks, or maybe in reality Domestics are better, and you are in denial? :P

EDIT: Oh I also daily drive my sports car and get better gas mileage than the same 350Z mentioned above.
-=2003 Black Corvette Z06=-
StrangeWill
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:07 pm

Post by StrangeWill »

@Azrael:
I don't want to KNOW what you had to do to bend the valves on a Honda, it's not a common problem. Sounds like that guy who thought VWs were shit because he was grinding his transmission to dust. :?

Look at the reports earlier in the thread, major American manufactures are below industry average. Unless you have some other than your opinion to post about, thats all the facts we have, and thats all we go off of.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
JackBauer
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3003
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:19 pm
Location: Atl. GA

Post by JackBauer »

All american cars except fords are trash.
Just My humble opinion...Dodges are bland with no character, and break alot. Chryslers are unreliable, and are a nightmare, Chevy V8s sound blah, and stupid square dashes get old and annoying, the parts cost way too much for an american car, and is overly complicated for what it is..Ford.. Ford is what an american car should be. Comfy, Hands down the best sounding V8, affordable, quite reliable, great trucks.. even there family cars like the focus are fun to drive, and european inspired, Then..drive a Ford XR4TI great car..if i HAD to buy an american car, it'd be a Ford.
User avatar
Azrael
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Location: Belmont, CA

Post by Azrael »

StrangeWill wrote:@Azrael:
I don't want to KNOW what you had to do to bend the valves on a Honda, it's not a common problem. Sounds like that guy who thought VWs were quit because he was grinding his transmission to dust. :?

Look at the reports earlier in the thread, major American manufactures are below industry average. Unless you have some other than your opinion to post about, thats all the facts we have, and thats all we go off of.
You talk about posting my opinions and then post your own, retarded. BTW, I take it you know nothing other than Consumer Reports, so to bend valves breaking a cheap poorly engineered timing belt would do it. Not by neglect mind you, but by bad design.

I treat my cars well, and have probably taken apart and then put back together more cars than you have ever driven; both import and domestic. Consumer Reports is not fact, it is sponsor driven opinion.

While taken as a whole domestic cars are far more reliable than European cars by industry failure rates...

EDIT: The "facts" posted earlier don't even have domestic vehicles they seem to be a mix of Eurpoean represented vehicles with some U.S. Manufacturers (Ford/Jaguar and the only GM brand shown Vauxhall)... So there goes your "facts"... :roll:
-=2003 Black Corvette Z06=-
watkins
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 15880
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:42 am
Cars: '08 Saab 9-5 Aero wagon
Location: Salem, MA

Post by watkins »

Azrael wrote:While taken as a whole domestic cars are far more reliable than European cars by industry failure rates...
Way to state the obvious. There are so many off-brand Eurocars aroud that nobody outside of their country of origin ever hear of. These are frequently cheaply made insta-junkers. Take that along with the fact that BMW and Mercedes, two of the biggest European auto maker, were both synonymous with garage time for a few years, and it could make American cars look perfect.

Its the top Asian brands that are the real competition in reliability. Hondas, Toyotas, Acuras, older Nissans, and Subarus almost never die without a fight. European brands have been catching back up rapidly in the last few years, and American cars sit somewhere on the high end of the middle and are also getting much better overall.
User avatar
Azrael
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Location: Belmont, CA

Post by Azrael »

watkins wrote:
Azrael wrote:While taken as a whole domestic cars are far more reliable than European cars by industry failure rates...
Way to state the obvious. There are so many off-brand Eurocars aroud that nobody outside of their country of origin ever hear of. These are frequently cheaply made insta-junkers. Take that along with the fact that BMW and Mercedes, two of the biggest European auto maker, were both synonymous with garage time for a few years, and it could make American cars look perfect.

Its the top Asian brands that are the real competition in reliability. Hondas, Toyotas, Acuras, older Nissans, and Subarus almost never die without a fight. European brands have been catching back up rapidly in the last few years, and American cars sit somewhere on the high end of the middle and are also getting much better overall.
Whew... a long winded post, that says absolutly nothing.. Thanks!!!
-=2003 Black Corvette Z06=-
blauenlanze
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1708
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:47 am
Cars: 2017 BMW M240i 6MT
Location: San Francisco/Los Angeles, CA

Post by blauenlanze »

You mean that Terrence guy? :)

Also, the Edmunds guide isn't exactly representative, because it lists one model from one class, which tells you almost nothing about the manufacturer's overall rating. If you look at an overall list of 'most reliable car models', taking into account that SUVs are generally a lot less reliable (being dominated by American manufacturers) and all that, you'll end up with the top 50 being heavily Japanese.

If you're talking about high performance, well, you won't really care about getting to 100,000 miles with only oil changes and checkups, then there is really an anti-American car bias. Alright, the Pontiac GTO and the Mustang probably have the stereotypically American 400hp V8 and substandard handling. But the Mustang was meant as a muscle car, and the Goat is really Australian.

So there's the Corvette Z06, which most Europeans have hard time understand. You could buy two of these, one for weekend fun, one for the track, and still have money left over a daily commuter, for the price of one Ferrari F430.

By its tests around the Top Gear track, which a straight line only to those who take walks around labyrinths for fun, it does 1:22.6 which beats the Ferrari F430, Murcielago, Zonda, Koenigseggish CCXishR, and other extremely expensive cars.

Of course then you have Jeremy Clarkson, who comes up with some excuses like, "It has terrible gas mileage" (not true actually, the regular Corvette manages about 18/28mpg cause you can acclerate pretty well at 700-1400rpm and cruise at 1500rpm at 80mph), "The steering wheel's on the wrong side of the car" (yeah, they didn't expect many Brits to like the American car), "It only works on the track" (Sure...), and on and on.

Also, what's up with the new EPA's BS gas mileage numbers? They assume everyone drives like an idiot, riding 10ft off the car in front of them's bumper, hitting the brakes and gas in rapid succession, acclerating to red lights, braking to green ones... There's no need to comfort someone who gets bad gas mileage because they can't drive in traffic. Come on, EPA...

What's hard to believe though, as Chevrolet manages to put out an amazing top end car, their bread and butter is a hodgepodge of useless SUVs that create dangers on the road to drivers of normal sized cars, and even worse, their own flagship. Imagine if a Suburban ran into a Corvette for some reason after trying to avoid something. The Suburban's bumpers are so high, it would practically be launched over the Corvette's hood and hit the driver square in the face, killing him instantly. Then it would roll over due to the massive G-forces used while trying to avoid said Corvette, and kill its own driver. Very smart. We have too many 6000lb SUVs in the U.S. I wonder why... And they don't even have to pay the gas guzzler tax. How stupid.
2007 BMW M240i 6MT
2006 Honda S2000 6MT (old)
2001 Honda Prelude SH 5MT (old)
2000 Toyota Camry V6 (old) auto
blauenlanze
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1708
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:47 am
Cars: 2017 BMW M240i 6MT
Location: San Francisco/Los Angeles, CA

Post by blauenlanze »

http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/08/autos/j ... /index.htm
OK, now that's a 2006 update, for NEW cars. Notice how Mercury, Buick, and Cadillac have climbed into the top 4, partially because Skoda is gone. It's GONE, because, well, they apparently chose the U.S. to survey instead. Ford is still almost exaxctly average. ...

http://www.reliabilityindex.co.uk/tophu ... 9010848601
These are reliability numbers for used cars conducted by Warranty Direct, a warranty company in the UK. Ignore it if there are too many European cars for your tastes.
Last edited by blauenlanze on Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
2007 BMW M240i 6MT
2006 Honda S2000 6MT (old)
2001 Honda Prelude SH 5MT (old)
2000 Toyota Camry V6 (old) auto
User avatar
tehfade
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 690
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:41 pm
Location: 127.0.0.1

Post by tehfade »

I think I'll post up some of the vehicles we've owned. Seems to me that the only cars I've had that WERE reliable were the American ones:

2005 Pontiac GTO: Dead-nut reliable so far. Build quality better than the Audi, and more comfortable than the Crown Vic. I don't care what anyone says about "stereotypically American handling" either, the thing handled amazingly bone-stock, and with the Pedders suspension, I'd honestly put it up against an M3. It's certainly better than the A4, which had the same suspension as an S4.

1998 Audi A4: In the 6000 miles I had it, it needed two sets of tires, didn't start half the time, would die on me occasionally, and had catastrophic brake failure. Sunroof switch went out, power steering leaked, and the axle seals were defective. Driving it, it felt like a million bucks, and the interior quality was great, but I still could have jumped for joy the day I got rid of it.

1993 Toyota Camry: Two transmissions, parking brake assembly, shifter, new radiator, both CV joints were about to go, never had heat or a/c, no brakes, and pulled to the right dangerously. Crap quality, and would categorically refuse to accelerate above 70 or so.

1996 Ford Windstar van: An absolute tank up till ~200k when we got rid of it. Very comfortable, and faster than the stupid Camry. Build quality wasn't any worse than the Camry either.

1987 Pontiac 6000: Another tank, I don't know how many miles it had when we got rid of it, but it was in 1996, so it was probably a lot. Quality was unimpeachable, if the blatantly '80s decor didn't bother you.

1989 Ford Crown Victoria: The very definition of a tank, lol. More than two tons of good 'ole American iron. Never needed a thing right up till my dad hydrolocked it. I loved that car, it was so smooth and, dare I say, luxurious?

2006 Toyota Sienna: Absolutely dangerous to drive, radiator blew up the day we picked it up, found a freakin' bungee cord holding a cover on the engine, body welds cracking, weird noises constantly, and has the worst build quality of any Toyota I've ever been in.
I drive a Phantom Black 2005 GTO M6. I commute in a 2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited.
blauenlanze
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1708
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:47 am
Cars: 2017 BMW M240i 6MT
Location: San Francisco/Los Angeles, CA

Post by blauenlanze »

Well you upgraded the GTO's suspension, so that'd make a difference. Seriously though, what someone said earlier about the bad lemons influencing choice for life makes sense. I know a few other people who've run into problems with the 2-3 imports they've driven before, sometimes even ONE, and continue to be scared off because of that. Ditto the other way around. But the way the numbers work, there are going to be more people scared off American cars.

I once read an article that said something to the tune of, "80% of car buyers won't buy imports" and it worked both ways too, so the 80% of domestic buyers won't buy imports, and the 80% of import buyers wouldn't buy domestic.

Alright, found it: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=5521
2007 BMW M240i 6MT
2006 Honda S2000 6MT (old)
2001 Honda Prelude SH 5MT (old)
2000 Toyota Camry V6 (old) auto
ra64t
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 9:14 pm
Location: VA, USA
Contact:

Post by ra64t »

tehfade wrote: 2006 Toyota Sienna: Absolutely dangerous to drive, radiator blew up the day we picked it up, found a freakin' bungee cord holding a cover on the engine, body welds cracking, weird noises constantly, and has the worst build quality of any Toyota I've ever been in.
You bought a car with a bungee cord holding the engine cover down??
.insane
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1280
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:06 pm
Cars: 1998 Ford Contour Slush
Location: hovering over the post reply button

Post by .insane »

Simple
My car Toyota Tercel 1993 250k miles on it before i sold it, and than the other 93 that doesn't move in my garage with 300k miles on it, only regular oil changes, and fluid changes, the usual tires and brakes, and timing belts changed, well mantained ran to 300k you would probably buy 2-3 American cars in the 300k mile range
Image
Retired:
'98 Ford Contour (AT) - 130,xxx miles (passed to my brother)
'93 Toyota Tercel (4sp MT) - 190,xxx miles (donated)
Post Reply