please critique what I'm doing
-
- Junior Standardshifter
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 9:17 pm
- Cars: trixy
please critique what I'm doing
Geetings,
So I haven't been driving stick for long, but first learned to drive on one, so I've been frustrated by the lack of control for many years now. So;
The car '04 matrix, 1zz-fe and a w59 (1.8l straight four and a 5speed).
Mostly I just drive to work, and back 7 miles each way. Two stop signs, two lights one two right hand turns and one left....and the opposite on the way back (what's the opposite of a light?) It's mostly 30 & 35 zones and a little bit of 25 when I'm almost there (FYI I drive 5 over like everyone else.... I mean my speedometer is off, in MA it can 9mph off legally). I also drive a mile or so to get lunch, often more "city driving" at that time of day. I end up driving on the interstate and some 45-55 mph highways a little on weekends.
So how I drive; I shift at about 2800rpm and try to give the throttle 80% (so I'm getting up to speed rather quickly) then it put it fifth. So I usually don't hit fourth at all. In 25 zones I often go from second to fifth. The thing that confuses me is; fifth feels right for maintaining 30 on flat ground, where is the gear for 40 or 50?
So I haven't been driving stick for long, but first learned to drive on one, so I've been frustrated by the lack of control for many years now. So;
The car '04 matrix, 1zz-fe and a w59 (1.8l straight four and a 5speed).
Mostly I just drive to work, and back 7 miles each way. Two stop signs, two lights one two right hand turns and one left....and the opposite on the way back (what's the opposite of a light?) It's mostly 30 & 35 zones and a little bit of 25 when I'm almost there (FYI I drive 5 over like everyone else.... I mean my speedometer is off, in MA it can 9mph off legally). I also drive a mile or so to get lunch, often more "city driving" at that time of day. I end up driving on the interstate and some 45-55 mph highways a little on weekends.
So how I drive; I shift at about 2800rpm and try to give the throttle 80% (so I'm getting up to speed rather quickly) then it put it fifth. So I usually don't hit fourth at all. In 25 zones I often go from second to fifth. The thing that confuses me is; fifth feels right for maintaining 30 on flat ground, where is the gear for 40 or 50?
-
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 11607
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:44 pm
- Cars: '08 Jeep Liberty
- Location: Greater Detroit Area
Re: please critique what I'm doing
They left it on the shelf when they built your trans?DrJerryrigger wrote:Geetings,
So I haven't been driving stick for long, but first learned to drive on one, so I've been frustrated by the lack of control for many years now. So;
The car '04 matrix, 1zz-fe and a w59 (1.8l straight four and a 5speed).
Mostly I just drive to work, and back 7 miles each way. Two stop signs, two lights one two right hand turns and one left....and the opposite on the way back (what's the opposite of a light?) It's mostly 30 & 35 zones and a little bit of 25 when I'm almost there (FYI I drive 5 over like everyone else.... I mean my speedometer is off, in MA it can 9mph off legally). I also drive a mile or so to get lunch, often more "city driving" at that time of day. I end up driving on the interstate and some 45-55 mph highways a little on weekends.
So how I drive; I shift at about 2800rpm and try to give the throttle 80% (so I'm getting up to speed rather quickly) then it put it fifth. So I usually don't hit fourth at all. In 25 zones I often go from second to fifth. The thing that confuses me is; fifth feels right for maintaining 30 on flat ground, where is the gear for 40 or 50?
It was an extra-cost option?
They didn't have one at the time that fit underhood without bumping the frame rail?
It would have required another round of certification for a very small sales volume?
It would have required a dual-mass flywheel to reduce the Neutral rattle?
They would have had to tool up a new shifter, shift knob and shift boot?
There wasn't enough room between the driver's and passenger's knee apparati for an extra shift plane?
They couldn't bear the thought of using a lift ring or push-down to allow selection of Reverse gear?
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"
Re: please critique what I'm doing
^^^
1988 Chevy S10 M5
I will never get rid of this truck!
2006 Chevy Silverado LT3 A4
I will never get rid of this truck!
2006 Chevy Silverado LT3 A4
- theholycow
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 16021
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
- Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
- Location: Glocester, RI
- Contact:
Re: please critique what I'm doing
Is 2800 necessary? I looked up that engine and it's no torque beast so maybe it is necessary, but it's worth a critical look.DrJerryrigger wrote:So how I drive; I shift at about 2800rpm and try to give the throttle 80% (so I'm getting up to speed rather quickly) then it put it fifth. So I usually don't hit fourth at all. In 25 zones I often go from second to fifth. The thing that confuses me is; fifth feels right for maintaining 30 on flat ground, where is the gear for 40 or 50?
I feel the same way about high gear, or lack thereof, in many manuals. In my 2008 VW I was in 5th at the same speeds you describe. I wanted 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th gear to get up to 70 without unnecessary buzzing waste.
In that car I experimented with skip-shifting like you do but I ended up using every gear. It was rapidfire shifting. I'd wait at a red light, it would turn green and I'd be in 4th by the time I was under the light. Launch, slap clutch pedal to the floor/pop the accelerator pedal/flick shifter with a "thunk" then the accelerator made a "thack" sound as it hit the floor (wideband O2 means I didn't need to pull my punches to avoid open loop/enrichment) and the clutch pedal got dumped, a moment later it's slap/pop/flickthunk/thack/dump, repeat, repeat. I beat the everliving hell out of the EPA estimates in that car and had a lot of fun doing it without holding up traffic (which only happened when I reached the speed limit -- I cannot risk the ticket, I insure too many vehicles to have my rates get jacked).
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT
Put your car in your sig!
Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
Put your car in your sig!
Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
- potownrob
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 7833
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:35 pm
- Cars: '17 CX-5 GT
- Location: Dutchess County
Re: please critique what I'm doing
it's gonna take you a while to get things down good driving as little as it sounds like you do. i recommend extending your commute to driving a few miles extra, even if it's just driving in a circle around your town. i also recommend practicing shifting through all the gears, at least for now, to get good at normal shifting and learn the characteristics of each gear. as for the 5th gear question, it might seem like some sort of black magic, but 5th gear can be good for a wide range of speeds. Being able to use 5th gear at 30 mph and 90 mph is a good trait. I am aware the older Matrix is not the quickest car out there, but still to be able to use 5th gear at 30 mph around town and also get decent mpg at higher speeds is not something to complain about. IIRC, the model with the 6 speed had the high output engine that you had to work the gears to accelerate (torque didn't come on til higher rpms), so the 5 speed with the lower powered engine (with better lowend torque) was probably not as fun for the spirited driver, but it's more practical in real world driving.
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
-
- Junior Standardshifter
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 9:17 pm
- Cars: trixy
Re: please critique what I'm doing
2800 is not needed, most situations I could keep it under 1500, heck I could probably keep in under 900 if no one is behind me.
I might be making this up, but I thought I read somewhere that fuel usage to power output (at or need WOT) is best at the RPMs that give the best tourqe (often about 4000rpm for gasoline engines).
As to my shifting system; I feel using all the gears leaves me not giving any power for too much time. If I'm using nearly WOT I need to fully close it for nearly a second before disengaging the clutch so the engine doesn't rev up, which would take more time to compensate for.
I might be making this up, but I thought I read somewhere that fuel usage to power output (at or need WOT) is best at the RPMs that give the best tourqe (often about 4000rpm for gasoline engines).
As to my shifting system; I feel using all the gears leaves me not giving any power for too much time. If I'm using nearly WOT I need to fully close it for nearly a second before disengaging the clutch so the engine doesn't rev up, which would take more time to compensate for.
-
- Junior Standardshifter
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 9:17 pm
- Cars: trixy
Re: please critique what I'm doing
I should mention I'm getting low 30'sMPG. Really rather good for all the short trips.
- potownrob
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 7833
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:35 pm
- Cars: '17 CX-5 GT
- Location: Dutchess County
Re: please critique what I'm doing
you need to practice driving normally (i.e. shifting through each gear) to learn to do it smoothly; skip shifting early on is just keeping you from figuring out the basics. with the part about 2800 rpms etc., if you're talking about launching at 2800 rpms (as in revving up to 2800 when letting out the clutch in 1st to start moving), that is too high, even on a hill. try to launch at 1500 rpms or lower, and eventually you will be able to comfortably launch around 1k rpms or so.DrJerryrigger wrote:2800 is not needed, most situations I could keep it under 1500, heck I could probably keep in under 900 if no one is behind me.
I might be making this up, but I thought I read somewhere that fuel usage to power output (at or need WOT) is best at the RPMs that give the best tourqe (often about 4000rpm for gasoline engines).
As to my shifting system; I feel using all the gears leaves me not giving any power for too much time. If I'm using nearly WOT I need to fully close it for nearly a second before disengaging the clutch so the engine doesn't rev up, which would take more time to compensate for.
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
- potownrob
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 7833
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:35 pm
- Cars: '17 CX-5 GT
- Location: Dutchess County
Re: please critique what I'm doing
that is very good, especially for around town short trip driving.DrJerryrigger wrote:I should mention I'm getting low 30'sMPG. Really rather good for all the short trips.
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
-
- Junior Standardshifter
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 9:17 pm
- Cars: trixy
Re: please critique what I'm doing
Oh god no, I launch at 900-1200. Still have some work to do on making that second nature, but it's very smooth 90% of the time. 2800(+or- 400) is when I have been up shifting. But working with that system I'm up to speed in third, so I just go to fifth (I always use fourth when getting up to speed on faster roads).
The "black magic" of fifth has a lot to do with aerodynamic. Air drag increases with a cube of your speed, so you need a lot more power to push through. So the gear I want for going 50 would probably be too high for driving 70, customers would be confused about down shifting to go faster...so no extra 3mpg for me.
The "black magic" of fifth has a lot to do with aerodynamic. Air drag increases with a cube of your speed, so you need a lot more power to push through. So the gear I want for going 50 would probably be too high for driving 70, customers would be confused about down shifting to go faster...so no extra 3mpg for me.
- potownrob
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 7833
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:35 pm
- Cars: '17 CX-5 GT
- Location: Dutchess County
Re: please critique what I'm doing
ok, now your system sounds a little more normal. try shifting a little sooner (at lower rpms) and see how it feels.DrJerryrigger wrote:Oh god no, I launch at 900-1200. Still have some work to do on making that second nature, but it's very smooth 90% of the time. 2800(+or- 400) is when I have been up shifting. But working with that system I'm up to speed in third, so I just go to fifth (I always use fourth when getting up to speed on faster roads).
The "black magic" of fifth has a lot to do with aerodynamic. Air drag increases with a cube of your speed, so you need a lot more power to push through. So the gear I want for going 50 would probably be too high for driving 70, customers would be confused about down shifting to go faster...so no extra 3mpg for me.
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
-
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 4029
- Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:04 pm
- Cars: 17 Mazda6 To, 18 Mazda3 i
- Location: Shakopee, MN
Re: please critique what I'm doing
4000 rpm is better...
It just is.
Clifford sees it regularly while still returning fantastic mileage. The last fill was 36.2 mixed.
It just is.
Clifford sees it regularly while still returning fantastic mileage. The last fill was 36.2 mixed.
- mtheis
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 1512
- Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:06 pm
- Cars: 07 Corolla, 76 Celica
- Location: Austin, TX
- Contact:
Re: please critique what I'm doing
Sorry to nitpick, but the w59 is a truck transmission. Did you mean c59?DrJerryrigger wrote:The car '04 matrix, 1zz-fe and a w59 (1.8l straight four and a 5speed).
2007 Corolla
2017 Cannondale Quick 3
1995 Tercel
1976 Celica GT
Unofficial SS.com IRC Server
Driving stick since March 20, 2002
Official lurker
2017 Cannondale Quick 3
1995 Tercel
1976 Celica GT
Unofficial SS.com IRC Server
Driving stick since March 20, 2002
Official lurker
- theholycow
- Master Standardshifter
- Posts: 16021
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
- Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
- Location: Glocester, RI
- Contact:
Re: please critique what I'm doing
Power output per unit of fuel at or near WOT is better than at part throttle. Do that at peak torque RPM and you're making a ton of energy out of a ton of fuel. If you actually need to make that much energy out of fuel then it would be most efficient to make it that way, but if you don't then it is a huge waste.DrJerryrigger wrote:2800 is not needed, most situations I could keep it under 1500, heck I could probably keep in under 900 if no one is behind me.
I might be making this up, but I thought I read somewhere that fuel usage to power output (at or need WOT) is best at the RPMs that give the best tourqe (often about 4000rpm for gasoline engines).
For normal driving on the road, the most efficient choice is to open the throttle as much as possible without going open loop*, and keep RPM as low as possible while producing the desired level of acceleration.
*: Likely 50-80% in most cars, but 100% in new cars with wideband O2 sensors, and who knows what in a car with narrowband but drive-by-wire.
Side note: Many people think that torque peak RPM is a magical RPM that, even when not making peak torque, is more efficient. That's generally untrue.
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT
Put your car in your sig!
Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
Put your car in your sig!
Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
-
- Junior Standardshifter
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 9:17 pm
- Cars: trixy
Re: please critique what I'm doing
That is true. My truck has a W4? in it, I got confused.mtheis wrote:Sorry to nitpick, but the w59 is a truck transmission. Did you mean c59?DrJerryrigger wrote:The car '04 matrix, 1zz-fe and a w59 (1.8l straight four and a 5speed).