Launching

1320 feet of adrenaline
coolguy
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Post by coolguy »

Exactly, especially when both cars are very similar/same in HP, transmission type, etc. Then the skilled driver wins :wink:
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Post by ReckLess »

in the anime show initial d the staring's car was not that fast 150hp and his opponent has some where about 270-350hp yet he was able to beat them by a large margin... it's in the skill of the driver to push the car to the limitst
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Post by coolguy »

Yeah this too!
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Post by ReckLess »

what's do you mean?
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coolguy
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Post by coolguy »

Well previously I said if those 2 cars are about the same in almost everything then the skilled driver will win. Then u mentioned even if those 2 cars are NOT similar in horsepower but the skilled driver can make up the difference and still win. And I agreed with that as well :wink:.
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Post by ReckLess »

ah i see so i understand
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Post by LS1Leader »

I'd be a lil cautious about taking driving tips from an anime. :)

Mike_E, despite the run-ons, is pretty spot on. Given an auto vs. manual, equal in everything else, the auto will be more consistent, and will usually run the faster time as well.

If some of you guys don't know, in bracket racing, consistency wins races. You put down a time which you think your car will run, and you try and get as close to it as possible. If you go below your stated time, I believe you're DQ'ed, so you try and cut it as close as possible.... 15.008 if you state a 15.00 time. In bracket racing, a Civic can put down a 17.87 and still win vs. a Viper that ran an 11.96, simply if the Civic stated a time of 17.8, and the Viper stated a time of 11.8 before the run. Automatics rule in bracket racing.

Even in full-on best-time-wins drag racing, automatics usually beat manuals... Once you start changing gear ratios and using higher stall torque converters, automatics get pretty mean. My friend had an old Camaro... '67 or something like that... 4 speed auto... racing gear ratios... thing couldn't go faster than 125 mph... but it hit 125 mph FAST... 400 hp + racing gear ratios = easy 10's in the 1320. There's too many variables that can get messed up while driving a manual... missing a gear, launching too hard, shifting too early/too late... With a tuned auto, you brake launch (getting the RPMs to the right level w/ brake launching is cake), and the auto will shift at the axact right points. All you do is let go of the brakes and keep on the gas the whole time. It might not take that much skill, but it IS faster.

Same driver skill, same gear ratios, same mods, automatic will win more than 9 times out of 10. The only advantage of a manual vs. auto in stock cars may be the gear ratio. And even then, 4 spd auto V8 camaros/firebirds are faster than 6 spd manual V8 camaros/firebirds in the 1320. You don't really need 6 gears for drag racing with a torquey V8. Maybe with a peaky little VTEC-type engine, but not on cars with flat torque curves
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Post by ReckLess »

you crazy? i get driving tips on this site... i just like to watch anime it's like a hobby of mine or one of my addiction... well it could be inspiring... that's one thing sure
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Post by Paradoxish »

LS1Leader wrote:Same driver skill, same gear ratios, same mods, automatic will win more than 9 times out of 10. The only advantage of a manual vs. auto in stock cars may be the gear ratio. And even then, 4 spd auto V8 camaros/firebirds are faster than 6 spd manual V8 camaros/firebirds in the 1320. You don't really need 6 gears for drag racing with a torquey V8. Maybe with a peaky little VTEC-type engine, but not on cars with flat torque curves
The number of gears is irrelevant. The problem with automatics vs. manuals in drag racing is the amount of drivetrain loss. The three most important factors for a drag race are going to be traction, power, and gearing. All things being equal, the manual driver will have less drivetrain loss and as a result will be putting more power to the wheels. In the case of two identical street cars, the manual should always win by a fair margin. Looking at manufacturer 0-60 times for automatic and manual cars of the same model is a good example of this.

That said, automatics are better for drag racing. Like you said, they're a lot more consistent and can usually get a better launch from a stop. Take the hypothetical situation from above, but this time assume that the automatic car is making just enough power at the crank so as to overcome the extra drivetrain loss from the slushbox (and possibly enough on top of that to even out any power-to-weight difference between the manual/auto). In that case, the automatic should always be faster.

This is why SMGs are so cool. With a sequential manual gearbox you get all the advantages of a manual with none of the downsides. If needed, the computer can shift perfectly and consistently every single time yet drivetrain loss is no worse than a manual.
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Post by LS1Leader »

Paradoxish wrote: The number of gears is irrelevant. The problem with automatics vs. manuals in drag racing is the amount of drivetrain loss. The three most important factors for a drag race are going to be traction, power, and gearing. All things being equal, the manual driver will have less drivetrain loss and as a result will be putting more power to the wheels.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but the number of gears DOES affect your performance. If you have too many gears, and the gears do nothing to keep you in the powerband (i.e. poorly geared/not geared for racing), your performance will suffer. For a peaky import engine (i.e. Toyota Celica), 6 gears in a close ratio is actually very useful, because the gears keep you in the engine's sweet spot. At the same time, the more gears you have to shift through in a drag race, the more time you will lose, and more gears won't necessarily mean a performance benefit for a domestic v8 with a flat torque curve and similar levels of power at 3000 RPM and at redline. Take the example of a Camaro V8... 6 speed gearbox... You finish the 1320 in 4th gear... but if you change your final drive ratio from 3.42 to 3.73 or 4.12, you're likely to finish the 1320 in 5th gear, which increases your time needlessly b/c 5th gear isn't a torque monster unlike the first 4 gears. Not to mention that the 5th and 6th gears for that car were designed primarily for fuel economy, not for drag performance, vs. the Celica's closely geared 6 speed.

So unfortunately, the number of gears IS relevant. It's relevant and will affect your performance, because the gearing and the number of gears must be optimized for the engine's unique powerband.

That said, I won't argue that there is more drivetrain loss in an automatic, specially consumer slushboxes. Manuals are definitely more directly linked from the engine to the wheels than autos.
In the case of two identical street cars, the manual should always win by a fair margin. Looking at manufacturer 0-60 times for automatic and manual cars of the same model is a good example of this.
However, your case of two identical street cars, one stick, one auto, does not apply to most real world cars. As of right now, many autos are 4-speed, and many sticks are 5- or 6-speed, once you ignore the random Tiptronic trannies. Also, most autos weigh significantly more than their manual counterparts (Tiptronics weigh even more than regular automatics most of the time, too). In addition, the gearing for sticks and autos is different. So, while you're right that stock for stock, many manuals are faster than autos, there are a host of other factors besides drivetrain loss that result in faster times for manuals.
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Nice Try

Post by bee77 »

Burningclutch wrote: Can anyone with experience explain the proper way to launch from a stop?.
Well you know what they say, nice try but no cigar.
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Post by SupYo »

I think a really skilled person of driving a stick would beat an Auto.
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Post by Johnf514 »

Pit a stock vehicle next to its manual counterpart, and the standard should win every race if driven properly. However, automatics hold a distinct advantage on the drag, while sticks dominate the twisties. It just all depends on what game you want to play. :P
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Post by andrew84tran »

You guys never watch Best Motoring? Tsuchiya-san says automatics are slower than manuals! lol

Anyway assuming you are racing properly around a track, my point is if your driving a manual you get to pick your gears thus helping you stay in your powerband and get maximum acceleration. Given two cars that are identical and only differ by manual and auto, then the manual will win with certainty. This is because a normal automatic is unable to see ahead and predict what gear it should be in when conditions are uncertain (i.e. it won't know when to downshift when you want to brake and enter the apex and accelerate hard out, it will take a moment to think before it realises you are full throttling it before it decides to downshift to give you better acceleration). Other points which favour the manual include the automatic's gearing. As someone mentioned earlier (if your care to read his post for the explanation), most automatics are 4-speed transmissions. The gearing is much wider apart and are not as effictive as 5 or 6-speed transmissions with closer gears. Automatics are slushboxes, it runs using a torque converter which loses power in its inefficiency to transfer power to the wheels whereas a manual feeds power directly through the clutch. The other point being automatics are generally heavier than manuals giving the manual slight weight advantage. All factors considered, a skilled driver who knows how to heel and toe correctly (heel and toeing enables the driver to downshift whilst maintaining balance of the car because the downshifts are rev matched during braking which does not disturb the balance i.e. it will not jerk the car around), the manual will surely lap a faster time around the track than its automatic counterpart.

In drag racing however, since all there is to it is accelerating as hard as you can from beginning to end, then in theory assuming the automatic transmission is programmed to do the shifting at a perfect shiftpoint within redline, it should net faster times than a manual. The reason being automatics can shift much faster than what we could do with our hands and feet in a manual. A very good example of this is the new VW Golf Gti which runs using the DSG automatic transmission. Instead of using a torque converter, a real clutch disc is used in the car, however it is controlled automatically. Best Motoring ran 1/4 mile times and the DSG beat the manual by a fair bit.
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Post by white-dragon »

honestly, i dont see how an auto could beat a manual in a drag because you cant get the revs up for the launch like you can in a manual. i also believe that even a weaker car with a manual can beat a more powerful car that has an auto. case in point.....me....i raced one of my friends for fun......needless to say i lost.......he has a honda crx w/a manual.....although he did get a motor swap....and i was driving 2000 mustang(v6).....he beat me by about 4 cars....any thoughts?
*_dragon_*
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