No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

All things photo, moving or not.
Post Reply
bde
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:05 pm

No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by bde »

G. Panizzi showing some skillz without regular heel&toe downshifts)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oT9nQfMXKc
Good decisions come from experience -
experience comes from bad decisions...
Rope-Pusher
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 11607
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:44 pm
Cars: '08 Jeep Liberty
Location: Greater Detroit Area

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by Rope-Pusher »

The days of healing toes are coming to an end, expretzelly after Toyota's throttle issues. If they haven't used this strategy before, automakers will Shirley implement control logic that cuts the throttle to idle whenever the brakes are applied. Be the first on the internet to offer cable-throttle pedal conversions and a half-dozen die-hard fanatics will beat a path to your website!
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"
94Corolla5Speed
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 6927
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:51 pm
Cars: 1994 Corolla, 1990 Miata
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by 94Corolla5Speed »

Rope-Pusher wrote:The days of healing toes are coming to an end, expretzelly after Toyota's throttle issues. If they haven't used this strategy before, automakers will Shirley implement control logic that cuts the throttle to idle whenever the brakes are applied. Be the first on the internet to offer cable-throttle pedal conversions and a half-dozen die-hard fanatics will beat a path to your website!
#1 out of 6 here...possibly #2, I don't know how bad THC wants it.
User avatar
theholycow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 16021
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
Location: Glocester, RI
Contact:

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by theholycow »

94Corolla5Speed wrote:#1 out of 6 here...possibly #2, I don't know how bad THC wants it.
It'd have to be cheaper than getting my DBW reprogrammed with an aftermarket tune...which is impossible because it would require a tune to make it work.
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
bde
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:05 pm

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by bde »

I doubt that this logic will be implemented on manual cars. Automatics possibly, but performance cars will never have it I think. Sales will go down and companies will be forced to eliminate the manual trannies completely or lobby the govt to allow them to forego this scheme on "performance" builds, assuming this idle throttle cut would even make it to production.
Good decisions come from experience -
experience comes from bad decisions...
User avatar
theholycow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 16021
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
Location: Glocester, RI
Contact:

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by theholycow »

It wouldn't be the first example. I know there's plenty of cars that come that way from the factory already. I think they're programmed to allow enough for HT.
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
LHOswald
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 2787
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:46 pm
Cars: '99 Civic Hatch w/B16a
Location: Enfield, Connecticut

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by LHOswald »

noone ever said you couldn't do it without heel-toe, but man that was some sloppy driving anyway. its impossible to threshold brake and non-rev match a downshift without your tires getting loose. hence the reason for heel-toe. its to keep you at high revs in a low gear when you enter the corner so you have full power potential when you hit the apex and go to mash the gas. im sure if gary sheehan raced around a track with using heel toe and one without, the one without would be slower, because he wouldn't be able to threshold brake and then downshift and dump the clutch without the tires getting loose. longer braking distances=slower laptime
Image
User avatar
eaglecatcher
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 9441
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:04 am
Cars: '90 300ZXTT 5MT
Location: Ithaca, NY

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by eaglecatcher »

Can you drive without HT? Sure. Can you drift? Sure. Is either one the fastest way around the track? No.


In racing, you want to always carry the highest speed possible, common sense. To do that, you'd brake as late and hard as you possibly can. If I slowly brake going into a corner, taking my sweet time, the guy behind me is gonna fly past me and then brake hard and late, effectively reaching the same cornering speed, yet will be ahead of me.

If you're good enough to use the braking effect from using the clutch to rev the engine up on a downshift, and modulate the brake pedal accordingly to continue to achieve maximum braking, then go right ahead and say screw HT, but I challenge you to find anyone that can, because it's impossible.
Z1 Intake
Z1 2.5" Test pipes
HKS 65mm Hi-Power Exhaust
AMS Short Shifter
SZ Subframe Spacers
HKS Vein Pressure Converter
DDM Tuning 6000k HIDs
LHOswald
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 2787
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:46 pm
Cars: '99 Civic Hatch w/B16a
Location: Enfield, Connecticut

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by LHOswald »

paul34 wrote:Yea, it's easy to avoid HT if you never rev match.
in an actual race car, they use the bare minimum of tranny fluid to get the lowest drivetrain losses due to the tranny moving all the fluid. if you tried to downshift without HT you wouldn't get past the synchro at crazy speeds.
But doing so means that you can upset the car more easily, since you're just dumping the clutch on a nonmatched shift.
he wasn't dumping it, but he wasn't exactly letting it out very smoothly either.
Also, what's with him riding the clutch all the time? Is this some special boosted car technique I don't know about?
he sucks thats why. lol!
Image
bde
Senior Standardshifter
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:05 pm

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by bde »

To set the record straight, this was meant to be the "right way" of doing it without heel toe. Not the actual, politically-correct way to downshift.

Now, if any of you are familiar with BMI (best motoring vidoes), there was a showdown with panizzi vs some of the best japanese race AND rally drivers, who did a test run on a regular evo and used regular heel toe downshifts which were executed very fast. Panizzi won the showdown, he did use heel & toe, as far as i recall ,and lfb. And for the record, he is one of the best rally drivers in the world. So folks who comment on sloppy driving and suckage, you have no clue, cause you'll never reach 10% of what this guy can do combined. Get a grip and learn something from the video, instead of crappy bashing, which seems to happen quite often on SS lately. One of the reasons many oldtimers stopped posting here.
Good decisions come from experience -
experience comes from bad decisions...
LHOswald
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 2787
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:46 pm
Cars: '99 Civic Hatch w/B16a
Location: Enfield, Connecticut

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by LHOswald »

and now we know that he's not an idiot who doesn't know how to HT. thank you and now we know that he's actually a good racecar driver. our bad.

(not sarcasm)
Image
User avatar
gizmo
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:22 am
Cars: tC

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by gizmo »

i'd like to find out why he applied pressure to the clutch pedal during the times he had no intention of shifting.

Are the days of DCHTs really seeing their end?
User avatar
Bawked
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 2417
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:24 am
Cars: 08 JDM Subaru Impreza STI
Location: New Zealand

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by Bawked »

gizmo wrote:Are the days of DCHTs really seeing their end?
Does it really matter? In the big picture.... no. We will be old and rambling on about how we used to drive cars, with a shifter and a clutch :lol:
<3 fwd
watkins
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 15880
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:42 am
Cars: '08 Saab 9-5 Aero wagon
Location: Salem, MA

Re: No heel & toe? No problem! - Doing it the right way:)

Post by watkins »

And a steering wheel and ICEs under our own control
Post Reply