Introduction plus some questions.

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SPCSKI
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Introduction plus some questions.

Post by SPCSKI »

Hello, Quite helpful forum here. I started lurking on here when I purchased my first manual car, a Mazdaspeed6. I have had the care almost a month now. I can honestly say it has been one of the most nerve wreaking times of life learning how to drive this car.

Im not saying i regert it, just that it is much more difficult then I thought it would be :cry: At first I was stalling all the time. I was miserable. After every stall my anxiety went through the roof and I was unable to continue practicing because my hands and leg were shaking and then I would stall worse then the time before. I would over think (and still do) the stall. I would think in my head that the sound the engine made was the crankshaft bending and the piston rattling and that I was do catastrophic damage to the drive-train. These were no simple stalls. They were the bucking and heavy jerking ones. It was awful. This went on for about a week. I very slowly started to get the hang of the clutch and my stalling became less and less frequent. The clutch on the speed6 is very very hard to get use to in my option. I still am not consistent with reeving and releasing clutch to first from a standstill.
No matter what I can not seen to get it to smoothly get going from a stop with the rpms lower then 2000 When I really concentrate and take my time I can get to start moving at 1500 or 1700 rpms but I cant be taking 7 seconds on a busy street. At that rpm though the engine shakes and the it is not smooth. I got in to the habit of really quitly revving to 2000rpm and right when It hits the friction point i release the clutch up all the way. I am still not consistent though.
I drive the car everyday and Practice as much as i can. All the people I know keep telling me Im over thinking it. I dont know. Im pretty sure I will probably have the clutch destroyed by the end of the year. I just cant get over the nagging feeling that everytime I drive the car I damage it more and more. Like I said I drive it everyday and I plan on keeping the car. I wont give on learning to drive stick. I think all I got to do now is refine my technique.
My questions are. How bad am I damaging the the car and clutch when I rev it to 2000 or 2500 rpms just to get it going? How much damage have I cause form stalling the car so violently when I first started? Also, is it just me or is the Mazdaspeeed6 clutch kinda of hard to get used to? I think alot of my anxiety about driving it is that there are zero quite traffic free roads were I live ( Fort Hood, Texas) and the traffic is worse them New York or LA during the day, so I basically am driving in intense stop and go traffic everyday. Not the best environment to learn manual on. Also I don't think the clutch helps. Whoo sorry for such a long post. I wanted to let it all out.
Last edited by SPCSKI on Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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theholycow
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by theholycow »

Welcome.

You'll find that more people will read and respond to your post if you make it easier to read. It's a huge wall of unbroken text. Use the Enter key to put some blank lines in and turn it into paragraphs.

You haven't damaged your car. You're wearing the clutch more than you should but it's absolutely not anything to freak out about.

You need to practice where there's no traffic. Find an empty parking lot and practice there. With nobody behind you, you can be as slow as you need to get some practice.

You are definitely overthinking it...and overthinking it is definitely normal.
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potownrob
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by potownrob »

welcome to the forums :) . you definitely have a harder car to learn on than most people have. from what people with mazdaspeed3's and speed6's on here have said, the clutch grabs very hard and only within a small area within the clutch pedal travel. you mentioned letting up the clutch as soon as it grabs; this might be part of the bucking problem since you will at least initially need to slow down through the entire engagement which goes beyond where the clutch first grabs. for me (the way i see it at least) i'm still not done balancing the clutch and gas (i.e. not done matching revs for the engine and transmission) when the clutch starts to grab - i have to keep adding gas and ease the clutch out some before getting a smooth launch. upshifts from 1st to second etc. are much easier since you're already moving so you will probably find you can do them quicker (though they may still be hard at first, especially the 1-2 shift). all it really boils down to is practice and patience. as THC pointed out, you should try to find a more secluded area to practice, so you can focus more on your technique and not get too frustrated for bucking and stalling around other people and while you are trying to get places :D .
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watkins
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by watkins »

Rob, Moofasa just said no text walls.

Welcome new person!
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gizmo
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by gizmo »

Hey, glad you joined the club.

The only thing you've come close to damaging, and it's still fine, is your starter ( the thingthat goes woop woop woop when you turn the key). They are not meant to start many times in a short period.

It is taking you seven seconds to launch ( to get your foot off the clutch in 1st) because you're revving it to 2.5k.

You're revving to 2.5k because you're not using the clutch right. Obviously when you don't rev to 2.5k your car stalls, bucks, and steals candy. My guess is your moving the clutch pedal way too fast. Get in a parking lot and do NO-GAS launches. This will take 10 seconds instead of 7, so it won't help your slow launches, but it will train your clutch foot the proper motion. NOTE: you'll still buck, stall, and steal candy like holy he'll until you get that clutch foot moving right but that's fine -- if you move your clutch pedal slow enough you'll never stall doing the NO-gas and you'll start to get a feel for how a fluid clutch foot changes everything.

Once you get that down, practice steady gas launches. Rev to 1.1k and do the same no-gas motion with your foot. You'll see that it will get easier and faster.

But be forewarned: as hard as it is to mentally accept that the clutch must slip for 10 seconds and as tempting as it is to get your foot off the clutch it is far better than bucking, stalling, and clutch chatter (the wobbly feeling coming from the engine).

So SLIP the clutch for as long as it takes to get moving smoothly. Once your foot leanes the ropes, you can gradually speed it up (continually being smooth).
Rope-Pusher
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by Rope-Pusher »

Ever notice that if you were to brake to a stop (with slushbox, or manual in Neutral of clutch disengaged) with a constant pressure on the brake pedal, all the way until the car comes to a stop, the deceleration seems to increase suddenly as the vehicle just comes to a stop? As the relative velocity between the brake friction elements and the drums or rotors nears zero, the coefficient of friction goes up and you need to ease off the brake pedal at that last moment or you will maybe even chirp the tires and throw your passenger forward.

Similarly, just as the clutch disk angular velocity relative to the flywheel and pressure plate nears zero, the coefficient of friction goes up and the clutch grabs hard - might stall the engine or might just jerk the car suddenly. You need to pause letting up on the clutch pedal at this time, so the clutch doesn't grab so hard. The clutch will still stop slipping, but it will not be so abrupt. After you can feel/hear that it is fully engaged, you can finish letting off the on the pedal. The full clamp load of the clutch is required to keep it from slipping under full engine torque, but since we MOSTLY launch at partial engine torque, the clutch can become fully engaged with some clamp load being mitigated by your foot. Just say "One-Pizza, Two-Pizza" when you think you should be fully off the pedal before your do take your foot off the pedal and things should smooth out for you - and hey - PIZZA! Pleasant thoughts relieve stress!
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SPCSKI
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by SPCSKI »

Hello, I tried the no gas launch. Absolutely not possible in my car. I had my friend who has been driving stick for 20 years try too.
Stalled every time.

I did do those drills in the empty parking lot. While concentrating very very hard I was able to move the car at 1500 rpm. It took about 15 secs. Thats why too long for real world driving. I did this about 10 times. I was unable to get my time down. The car made that about to stall noise but I didn't stall it.

I have realized that the gas is very very sensitive also . I think that might also be contributing to my revving too high. Like I said I am able to drive to and from work everyday, but I am very far from being smooth with my launches. I have noticed that wearing different footwear also factors in to how smooth I start off.

When I got to work in the mourning for PT I am in running shoes. I drive my best in these.
When I go back to work after I eat and change I am in my heavy combat boots. With these I drive worse and have to concentrate hard to not to rev too high or let out clutch too quite. I thought by 4 weeks time I would be driving fine. This is turning out to way harder then I ever thought it to be.
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theholycow
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by theholycow »

Is your gas pedal the same kind you're used to in other vehicles? A problem I had with RPM control was that my VW's gas pedal is bottom-hinged, a type I've never used before. I was used to using my toe on the bottom corner of the pedal to feather it and my whole foot to floor it. With the bottom-hinge I have to use my whole foot for fine control, if I just use my toe I'm likely to floor it.

Have you tried driving barefoot? That helped me learn.

Rope-Pusher, that explanation was great! I never thought of that analogy, or that particular issue at all.
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SPCSKI
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by SPCSKI »

The Gas is hinged at the top. My old car ( the auto was at at the bottom.) I have not tried driving bare foot. When I go from a standstill to first I do it smooth its just that no matter what during real world driving I cant seem to get it to move a 1500 rpm. It always go to 2000rpms.
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AHTOXA
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by AHTOXA »

Any vehicle can be no-gas launched. This is where clutch control comes into play.

I think you are watching the tach too much when launching. You know by now how your car sounds and feels when you launch high or low. I believe that you need to practice your launches by feel more. You will be driving by feel going forward regardless and maybe it's better to start the right technique earlier.

How do you use your left foot? Is your heel on the floor when you are clutching out or do you lift the entire leg? It's best to use your whole leg at the knee and use the ankle for more refined control.

I was facing a similar challenge trying to learn so I simply launched and launched again driving around my area down one way streets where there was little traffic. If you are going to do that, let your clutch cool every 15 minutes or even less just to make sure you don't glaze it.

Just keep with it. While learning the progress is slow until one day you make a leap. That's how it was with me and some members here.
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FDSpirit
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by FDSpirit »

My civic has a top hinged pedal, but there is a tiny little area of dead space for throttle response. I've found that in that car I can't use the tip of my toe like I could in the Corolla, which had immediate throttle response. I have my foot kinda like this "/". But the ball of my foot contacts an area on the pedal where it picks up really quickly with the amount of pressure I give. It's hard to explain, but that was one reason I would either give my car too much or too little gas.
AHTOXA wrote:Any vehicle can be no-gas launched. This is where clutch control comes into play.

I think you are watching the tach too much when launching. You know by now how your car sounds and feels when you launch high or low. I believe that you need to practice your launches by feel more. You will be driving by feel going forward regardless and maybe it's better to start the right technique earlier.

How do you use your left foot? Is your heel on the floor when you are clutching out or do you lift the entire leg? It's best to use your whole leg at the knee and use the ankle for more refined control.

I was facing a similar challenge trying to learn so I simply launched and launched again driving around my area down one way streets where there was little traffic. If you are going to do that, let your clutch cool every 15 minutes or even less just to make sure you don't glaze it.

Just keep with it. While learning the progress is slow until one day you make a leap. That's how it was with me and some members here.
This.
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theholycow
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by theholycow »

...or, if you're already not looking at the tach, you might try looking at it. Either way, something different than whatever you're already doing might help.
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by Rope-Pusher »

Use the force, Luke!
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beowulf80
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by beowulf80 »

SPCSKI wrote:Hello, I tried the no gas launch. Absolutely not possible in my car. I had my friend who has been driving stick for 20 years try too.
Stalled every time.
No-gas is the best way to learn your clutch. Ok, try this: As you let the clutch up you should feel the friction point when the clutch is just starting to engage. As soon as you hit this point stop moving your left foot. The whole point of no-gas, at least as I see it, is to train your muscle memory where this friction point is. Your car should start to inch forward. If you're doing this right the transmission should not have enough grab to stall your engine out. If it does, you've overshot and your foot should be slightly closer to the floor.

What you're shooting for is a creeping motion, kind of like what you would do to move up one spot in a drivethough lane. With this technique you'll only be able to hit 3-5 mph, but that's all you need.

Eventually once this is natural you can start to add gas as you hit the friction point to speed the whole process up, but that will come in time. First things first, keep trying!

My clutch is simliar in a way, in that the whole engagement range is only an inch or two of travel. No doubt its a hard style to learn on, but once you've got it down you'll love it.
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FDSpirit
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Re: Introduction plus some questions.

Post by FDSpirit »

No-gas launches take a little more patience. Try letting the clutch go a little slower. Beo pretty much stated what I was gonna say. Keep at it.
2000 Honda Civic Si- Slightly faster than your grandmomma's grocery getter......slightly.
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