Notchy when coming out of gear

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TakataDomeNSX
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Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby TakataDomeNSX » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:32 pm

Hi all,

Hoping someone can shed some light on my problem. My car seems to suffer from a problem where when pulling out of gear it feels notchy/rough. Most evident in 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The car also suffers from the usual notchiness when entering gear also, but 30% of the time it can also be buttery smooth. Both master and slave have been replaced as was the clutch, the hydraulic bled numerous times. Am thinking something in the box what do you guys think?

Thanks

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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby IMBoring25 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:38 pm

Correct fluid for your transmission is very important. Sometimes a "better" fluid may not have the properties the transmission needs or be compatible with the materials used.

TakataDomeNSX
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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby TakataDomeNSX » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:24 pm

I us Honda MTF3 its the stuff recommended by Honda.

Rope-Pusher
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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby Rope-Pusher » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:54 pm

IS the notchiness pulling it out of a gear always there, with the engine on as well as with the engine off? If it feels fine with the engine off but notchy with the engine running, then I'd say your clutch is not fully releasing. Drag on the input shaft from the clutch would activate the synchro sleeve torque lock feature. Same goes for shifting into gear.

If it is the same no matter if the engine is on or off, then it could just be an aggressive detent in the transmission. I would expect that this would be a design issue, common to all vehicles using this transmission. Do other owners report similar observations?
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"

TakataDomeNSX
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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby TakataDomeNSX » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:14 pm

I don't experience the issue with the engine off, it comes out smooth. I've been on Honda forums before but I seem to be the only one with this problem. My master cylinder has been adjusted via the push rod numerous times but it doesnt help. My clutch pedal feels solid, despite this can air still be present somewhere in the system somewhere? When my clutch was bled it was using the two man method and with a vacuum pump. I do also have a pressure bleeder but haven't used that yet.

Rope-Pusher wrote:IS the notchiness pulling it out of a gear always there, with the engine on as well as with the engine off? If it feels fine with the engine off but notchy with the engine running, then I'd say your clutch is not fully releasing. Drag on the input shaft from the clutch would activate the synchro sleeve torque lock feature. Same goes for shifting into gear.

If it is the same no matter if the engine is on or off, then it could just be an aggressive detent in the transmission. I would expect that this would be a design issue, common to all vehicles using this transmission. Do other owners report similar observations?

Rope-Pusher
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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby Rope-Pusher » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:36 pm

TakataDomeNSX wrote:I don't experience the issue with the engine off, it comes out smooth. I've been on Honda forums before but I seem to be the only one with this problem. My master cylinder has been adjusted via the push rod numerous times but it doesnt help. My clutch pedal feels solid, despite this can air still be present somewhere in the system somewhere? When my clutch was bled it was using the two man method and with a vacuum pump. I do also have a pressure bleeder but haven't used that yet.

Rope-Pusher wrote:IS the notchiness pulling it out of a gear always there, with the engine on as well as with the engine off? If it feels fine with the engine off but notchy with the engine running, then I'd say your clutch is not fully releasing. Drag on the input shaft from the clutch would activate the synchro sleeve torque lock feature. Same goes for shifting into gear.

If it is the same no matter if the engine is on or off, then it could just be an aggressive detent in the transmission. I would expect that this would be a design issue, common to all vehicles using this transmission. Do other owners report similar observations?

Whale, it is possible that the clutch release bearing IS being stroked far enough (8+ mm at the bearing) and yet the clutch still drags against the flywheel. This can happen if there is rust on the trans input shaft splines, which can occur if the splines were not sufficiently lubed. Sometimes,lubrication is applied to the ID splines of the clutch friction disk hub. Other times, the vehicle manufacturer chooses to apply lube to the OD splines of the trans input shaft. Either way, if lubrication is omitted or only scantily applied, there can be issues later due to corrosion leading to friction that opposes the clutch disk from sliding away from the flywheel when the pressure plate(s) of the clutch cover are pulled back by stepping on the clutch pedal.

How far off the downstop does the pedal have to be before the clutch starts grabbing....25mm? 35mm? 45mm? You can attach the end of a tape measure to the sole of your shoe / clutch pedal pad, hold the reel end so the tape points thru the two end-points of the pedal arc, push the pedal against the downstop, note the distance to the reel, and then slowly, with the trans in 1st gear, let up on the pedal and note the distance to the pedal when the friction point is reached. If I were king of the universe, 35mm would be the magic number.
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"

TakataDomeNSX
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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby TakataDomeNSX » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:09 pm

The clutch grabs about 65mm off the floor. That is roughly what Honda recommends. Do you think its unlikely something inside of the gearbox? When the clutch was changed it was carried out by a very experienced chap, so hopefully the lack of grease can be ruled out but you never know I guess.

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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby Rope-Pusher » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:23 pm

TakataDomeNSX wrote:The clutch grabs about 65mm off the floor. That is roughly what Honda recommends. Do you think its unlikely something inside of the gearbox? When the clutch was changed it was carried out by a very experienced chap, so hopefully the lack of grease can be ruled out but you never know I guess.

If the vehicle is sitting still, the clutch pedal is held to the dopwnstop position, and you're shifting into and out of gear ranges, it should feel about the same with the engine running or with the engine off. If it degrades with the engine running, then something is wrong such that the clutch is transmitting enough torque to spin/apply torque to the input shaft.

With the vehicle sitting still, the engine off, and the clutch pedal depressed, try shifting into 1st and back to Neutral several times in a row. Maybe the first time into gear, there will be some resistance as the blocker ring imparts a rotational force to clock the shaft for better alignment of the synchro sleeve to the speed gear clutching teeth, but after the first time in, as long as you don't shift into any other position except for Neutral, then for the second and all subsequent shifts into 1st you should should just feel the force of the shift detent and the synchro struts. You can try this for any of the gear ranges - into gear, out to Neutral and back into gear and it should feel clean on the 2nd - nth time into that gear. If you start up the engine and it suddenly is notchier going into or out of gear, then the clutch is dragging. Even if there is plenty of pedal reserve, if the clutch hub isn't smoothly sliding on the input shaft, there is no retraction spring to pull it away from the flywheel, so with drag on the splines it can get "stuck" up against the flywheel and not fully release even with the pedal depressed and the pressure plate in the clutch cover not pressing against the clutch friction disk anymore.
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"

TakataDomeNSX
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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby TakataDomeNSX » Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:47 pm

Your explanation does make sense, I tried it today but still unsure if there is a difference. It there is, it is subtle. I'll give it another go tomorrow morning.

If its smooth on and off what does that point towards?

Rope-Pusher wrote:
TakataDomeNSX wrote:The clutch grabs about 65mm off the floor. That is roughly what Honda recommends. Do you think its unlikely something inside of the gearbox? When the clutch was changed it was carried out by a very experienced chap, so hopefully the lack of grease can be ruled out but you never know I guess.

If the vehicle is sitting still, the clutch pedal is held to the dopwnstop position, and you're shifting into and out of gear ranges, it should feel about the same with the engine running or with the engine off. If it degrades with the engine running, then something is wrong such that the clutch is transmitting enough torque to spin/apply torque to the input shaft.

With the vehicle sitting still, the engine off, and the clutch pedal depressed, try shifting into 1st and back to Neutral several times in a row. Maybe the first time into gear, there will be some resistance as the blocker ring imparts a rotational force to clock the shaft for better alignment of the synchro sleeve to the speed gear clutching teeth, but after the first time in, as long as you don't shift into any other position except for Neutral, then for the second and all subsequent shifts into 1st you should should just feel the force of the shift detent and the synchro struts. You can try this for any of the gear ranges - into gear, out to Neutral and back into gear and it should feel clean on the 2nd - nth time into that gear. If you start up the engine and it suddenly is notchier going into or out of gear, then the clutch is dragging. Even if there is plenty of pedal reserve, if the clutch hub isn't smoothly sliding on the input shaft, there is no retraction spring to pull it away from the flywheel, so with drag on the splines it can get "stuck" up against the flywheel and not fully release even with the pedal depressed and the pressure plate in the clutch cover not pressing against the clutch friction disk anymore.

Rope-Pusher
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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby Rope-Pusher » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:10 pm

Sometimes there is a problem with the nut that holds the steering wheel.

N e chants that ewe sumthymes aren't burying the clutch pedal before u start moving the shifter?
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"

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bk7794
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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby bk7794 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:32 am

What about Motor mounts? Is the shifter connected via cable or rod?
2000 Honda Civic EX 5 Speed
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TakataDomeNSX
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Re: Notchy when coming out of gear

Postby TakataDomeNSX » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:03 pm

I think the mounts might be ok. The mounts are even strengthened with polybush inserts. The shifter is connected by cable.

bk7794 wrote:What about Motor mounts? Is the shifter connected via cable or rod?


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