Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

General discussion about cars. Looking to buy a new car? Have a great driving story? Post it here!
User avatar
Shadow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3384
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:51 am
Location: New York

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by Shadow »

Squint wrote:
And an Optima starts about the same as a Sonata (which gets pretty good reviews) and not significantly less than either an Accord or a Camry (<$1,400 difference from base MSRP from a Camry and <$600 difference from base MSRP from an Accord).
BTW, curiosity made me go to the Kia & Honda websites to check out prices. If you take the barebones base model of each car, the MSRP is fairly close, with the Accord being around $600 more expensive. But then if you start adding options to those base model cars (and the options are limited on the base model cars, so all the fancy stuff still isn't included), then the Accord ends up with an MSRP nearly $5000 higher. And guess what? It's still a stripper base model without most of the "good" stuff.

Alternately, if you look at the to trim levels of both cars, you can load up a Touring Accord (non-hybrid to be fair) and sticker at $40K, while the top trim Optima is basically loaded (except for stuff like wheel locks and mudflaps, and a cargo net) and stickers at $36K. I find it interesting that Kia basically priced their Optima to undercut its Japanese competition by $4000 to $5000 dollars. I guess it would undercut the Camry even more, considering that the Camry is more expensive than a similarly-equipped Accord.

Again, this was just out of curiosity. It really has no bearing at all on my points made earlier in this thread. For that, I was talking brands, not models.
Image
User avatar
AHTOXA
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 14693
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:31 pm
Cars: '19 4RUNNER TRD ORP
Location: Irving, TX

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by AHTOXA »

Shadow wrote:
AHTOXA wrote:I think that vast majority of people who buy an appliance vehicle are concerned with fuel mileage, and appliance vehicle is your average vehicle, based on sales. Buyers of trucks, SUVs and lux entry/lux class also value higher MPG, but maybe less so. On the main auto forums, there are constant threads of "which car should I buy", and no matter the class, fuel consumption comparison withing class competitors is always present. Always.
So if Land Rover fudged their numbers and Kia fudged theirs by the same percentage, do you really think Range Rover owners would be upset about it to the degree that the Kia owners would be? Surely you're not trying to tell me that, right?
I think that if Land Rover did the same, they wouldn't have gotten away with it. Would the customers be upset to the same degree, eh, maybe, maybe not not, but it still would have been a pretty big deal, much like it is with Kia/Hyundai.

Having worked in retail for years, I know that many people in mid or upper-mid and higher economic classes really do pay attention to their spending. While they buy vehicles that aren't fuel efficient as compared to other options, fuel efficiency is still a big factor when choosing a car within the class they are looking at.

My experience has been with people that are more financially secure is this: they are more watchful of where their money goes, which is one of the reasons they have better financial security than many others. They aren't cheap, but they are frugal - there's a difference.

Some people like you don't care about fuel economy - of course - but you'd be surprised to know how many do in a similar situation. I've personally dealt with and known many such examples.

Let's take the light truck class - half tons to one ton trucks. Why do you think every commerical boasts highway fuel economy ratings? Why do you think manufacturers spend a lot of money in R&D producing tech like cylinder deactivation and other fuel-saving techniques in larger vehicles. Why do you think manufacturers like Dodge are bringing a diesel option to a half-ton truck? Ford also brought Eco-boost into their truck line a few years back.

Because truck buyers don't care about fuel economy? No, they do! Better fuel economy than the competition gets sales, and if a manufacturer's MPG claim was falsified, you bet that consumers would be very upset about it.


What is your feeling on fuel economy? I know that you've owned everything from your current fuel sipper to a Wrangler and a GTO, so does fuel economy really matter to you? I have a feeling that fuel economy has always mattered to you, but you're a car guy, so you dealt with having cars that burn through a lot of fuel, even though you wanted to be more economical. In the end, you're probably much more comfortable with a car that is great on gas, which is probably why you're driving the car you have now. For me, that would never happen because I honestly don't care about gas prices, so I'd never have any real reason to buy a car in that class.
Fuel economy hasn't always mattered to me - not in the least bit.

From 2004 until 2011 I mostly drove gas hogs. Lifted SUVs, the GTO, the Wrangler... I drove what I like and it didn't matter.

The reason for why I drive what I drive now is simple - changing priorities. I wanted to redirect the cost. Not only in fuel economy, but also maintenance cost. Replacing 33x12.5x15 tires every 20k miles costs $1200, whereas replacing my tires every 30,000 miles costs $400.

I take that money and spend it on other hobbies - specialized outdoor gear, mountain biking, guns and ammo. I'm now saving to buy a motorcycle.

I'm no longer as interested in what I drive, but more interested in other somewhat expensive hobbies, as listed above.
'19 Toyota 4Runner TRD ORP
'12 Suzuki V-Strom 650
User avatar
Shadow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3384
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:51 am
Location: New York

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by Shadow »

AHTOXA wrote: I think that if Land Rover did the same, they wouldn't have gotten away with it. Would the customers be upset to the same degree, eh, maybe, maybe not not, but it still would have been a pretty big deal, much like it is with Kia/Hyundai.

Having worked in retail for years, I know that many people in mid or upper-mid and higher economic classes really do pay attention to their spending. While they buy vehicles that aren't fuel efficient as compared to other options, fuel efficiency is still a big factor when choosing a car within the class they are looking at.

My experience has been with people that are more financially secure is this: they are more watchful of where their money goes, which is one of the reasons they have better financial security than many others. They aren't cheap, but they are frugal - there's a difference.
There's where I think you're wrong--people who buy an $90K Range Rover really aren't at all concerned about fuel economy. If they were, they wouldn't have shelled out that kind of cash for a vehicle that burns gas like a 60s muscle car. They are more interested in comfort, safety, vanity, prestige, etc.... Fuel economy is on the bottom of the list for their concerns. That's not to say that they don't care at all, but rather that they have many other priorities above and beyond fuel economy. People who buy Kias, on the other hand, are much more cost conscious overall, so it should be obvious that fuel economy will be a much more substantial concern to them.

Some people like you don't care about fuel economy - of course - but you'd be surprised to know how many do in a similar situation. I've personally dealt with and known many such examples.

Let's take the light truck class - half tons to one ton trucks. Why do you think every commerical boasts highway fuel economy ratings? Why do you think manufacturers spend a lot of money in R&D producing tech like cylinder deactivation and other fuel-saving techniques in larger vehicles. Why do you think manufacturers like Dodge are bringing a diesel option to a half-ton truck? Ford also brought Eco-boost into their truck line a few years back.

Because truck buyers don't care about fuel economy? No, they do! Better fuel economy than the competition gets sales, and if a manufacturer's MPG claim was falsified, you bet that consumers would be very upset about it.
Yes, that's exactly it. They are trying to beat each other, meaning having better fuel economy than the next fullsize truck manufacturer. It's not about getting good fuel economy, it's about having that little edge that will sway buyers into an ecoboost F150 instead of a Silverado or a Ram. But these are working class vehicles we're talking about. A Range Rover is a different story entirely.

Anyway, my point still remains that lower end car buyers do prioritize fuel economy more than average car buyers. I never said that average car buyers don't care about fuel economy, I just said that they don't care as much. And as you go up and up in price, vehicles tend to get worse and worse fuel economy. Why is that? Well, because those buyers just aren't nearly as concerned about fuel economy.
Image
User avatar
AHTOXA
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 14693
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:31 pm
Cars: '19 4RUNNER TRD ORP
Location: Irving, TX

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by AHTOXA »

Without arguing further semantics, I think that no manufacturer would have been able to get away with inflated MPGs more than the other, which is kind of the message I got from your post earlier. If the ratings are wrong and the consumer suddenly feels cheated and no longer feels like they got what they paid for - this is what's going to cause the storm, not so much the fact that they may care more or less about fuel economy than those driving a $90K Range Rover.
'19 Toyota 4Runner TRD ORP
'12 Suzuki V-Strom 650
User avatar
AHTOXA
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 14693
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:31 pm
Cars: '19 4RUNNER TRD ORP
Location: Irving, TX

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by AHTOXA »

Shadow wrote: And as you go up and up in price, vehicles tend to get worse and worse fuel economy. Why is that? Well, because those buyers just aren't nearly as concerned about fuel economy.
That's oversimplifying it a little bit. Generally larger vehicles cost more and they weigh more, so they require a larger motor to move the mass, thus burning more fuel. You're basically paying for size first and foremost. Then the features arrive.
'19 Toyota 4Runner TRD ORP
'12 Suzuki V-Strom 650
watkins
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 15880
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:42 am
Cars: '08 Saab 9-5 Aero wagon
Location: Salem, MA

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by watkins »

I have had multiple incidences of customers complaining that they are getting poor fuel economy in their top-spec products. Granted it really is usually an issue with the driver possessing lead driving shoes.

Theres definitely a reason we sell more fully loaded Grand Cherokees with the Pentastar than we do with the Hemi. It often comes down to fuel economy. When youre already spending over $52k MSRP, the slight price hike for a Hemi hopefully shouldnt be much of an issue. If it is, maybe an overall less expensive vehicle would be a better idea. Additionally, Im pretty sure we have sold more EcoDiesel models than Hemi as of late, and that cost even more upfront but results in better mileage.

But I work on the post-sale end of things, so take what I say cum grano salis.
User avatar
Shadow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3384
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:51 am
Location: New York

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by Shadow »

AHTOXA wrote:
Shadow wrote: And as you go up and up in price, vehicles tend to get worse and worse fuel economy. Why is that? Well, because those buyers just aren't nearly as concerned about fuel economy.
That's oversimplifying it a little bit. Generally larger vehicles cost more and they weigh more, so they require a larger motor to move the mass, thus burning more fuel. You're basically paying for size first and foremost. Then the features arrive.
My intention wasn't to oversimplify it....I wasn't going to even go into the "why", but rather just stick to the fact that generally, more expensive vehicles get worse fuel economy than less expensive vehicles. It's almost like a sliding scale, but admittedly it's not perfect. Generally though, the higher the price tag, the lower the fuel economy. My Range Rover example is just that--an example to illustrate that those buyers spend a lot of money to buy (or lease) a vehicle that gets terrible fuel economy (and uses premium gas to boot), while not having much concern for fuel economy. I just don't see Range Rover drivers/owners concerning themselves with MPGs the way an average Kia driver/owner might.
Last edited by Shadow on Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Shadow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3384
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:51 am
Location: New York

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by Shadow »

watkins wrote:
Theres definitely a reason we sell more fully loaded Grand Cherokees with the Pentastar than we do with the Hemi. It often comes down to fuel economy. When youre already spending over $52k MSRP, the slight price hike for a Hemi hopefully shouldnt be much of an issue. If it is, maybe an overall less expensive vehicle would be a better idea. Additionally, Im pretty sure we have sold more EcoDiesel models than Hemi as of late, and that cost even more upfront but results in better mileage.
Well, being that I just purchased a brand new Grand Cherokee with the Pentastar V6, I have to say that fuel economy didn't factor into my decision to go with the V6. I drove both and honestly I felt the V6 was more than powerful enough for anything I'd ever need. The V8 seemed like overkill. Maybe if I was going to tow a 7000 lb boat I'd go for the Hemi, but other than that, I think the V6 is really more engine than the Grand Cherokee needs. I think the 8-speed automatic really makes the V6 feel like a much more powerful engine. On the Jeep forums, people claim that the V6 with the 8-speed is as fast or even a bit faster than the 2013 and older Hemi V8 Grand Cherokees. I don't know if that's true or not, but I will say that the thing really moves well for a heavy SUV with a V6 under the hood.

Now if they can just get the damn transmission to shift properly in my POS Jeep..... :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
Image
User avatar
AHTOXA
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 14693
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:31 pm
Cars: '19 4RUNNER TRD ORP
Location: Irving, TX

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by AHTOXA »

I think you're applying your situation somewhat broadly.
'19 Toyota 4Runner TRD ORP
'12 Suzuki V-Strom 650
User avatar
potownrob
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 7833
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:35 pm
Cars: '17 CX-5 GT
Location: Dutchess County

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by potownrob »

Anyone know where I can get a 5 gallon drum of blinker fluid??
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
User avatar
theholycow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 16021
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:36 pm
Cars: '80 Buick LeSabre 4.1 5MT
Location: Glocester, RI
Contact:

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by theholycow »

potownrob wrote:Anyone know where I can get a 5 gallon drum of blinker fluid??
That's a LOT of blinker fluid. Couldn't you just buy a few smaller bottles?

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_pa ... 3ilZeoEAl1
1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1L 5MT

Put your car in your sig!

Learn to launch/FAQs/lugging/misused terms: meta-sig
watkins wrote:Humans have rear-biased AWD. Cows have 4WD
Rope-Pusher
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 11607
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:44 pm
Cars: '08 Jeep Liberty
Location: Greater Detroit Area

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by Rope-Pusher »

theholycow wrote:
potownrob wrote:Anyone know where I can get a 5 gallon drum of blinker fluid??
That's a LOT of blinker fluid. Couldn't you just buy a few smaller bottles?

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_pa ... 3ilZeoEAl1
He's obviously stocking up now for his retirement years.
'08 Jeep Liberty 6-Speed MT - "Last of the Mohicans"
User avatar
Shadow
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 3384
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:51 am
Location: New York

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by Shadow »

potownrob wrote:Anyone know where I can get a 5 gallon drum of blinker fluid??
5 gallons? I've never had to refill mine once! Not on any of my cars!!
Image
User avatar
potownrob
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 7833
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:35 pm
Cars: '17 CX-5 GT
Location: Dutchess County

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by potownrob »

i must drive my cars hard, have to refill my blinkers at least once a month :| :?:
ClutchFork wrote:...So I started carrying a stick of firewood with me and that became my parking brake.
watkins
Master Standardshifter
Posts: 15880
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:42 am
Cars: '08 Saab 9-5 Aero wagon
Location: Salem, MA

Re: Hyundai/Kia fined for misstated fuel economy/emissions

Post by watkins »

Shadow wrote:Now if they can just get the damn transmission to shift properly in my POS Jeep..... :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:
Dont worry, the 354641519th software update for shift quality is just around the corner :roll: :lol:
Post Reply